Anyone still teaching "semi-circle to the left and both step back"?

[Andy McGregor]

I stopped using and teaching this confusing lead years ago. I posted a lot of argument on here saying it was pointless. Many people chimed in to disagree with me and say that Ceroc was fantastic and you shouldn't criticise such a fine organisation.

I suggested that Ceroc continued to do and say "semi-circle to the left and both step back". The reason I suggested this is that I believed it was a nice way to differentiate what I did vs what they did.

Some time later Ceroc stopped saying "semi-circle ...". The last time I attended a Ceroc lesson was about six months ago. The teachers weren't saying "semi-circle .." but they WERE still doing it.

I don't teach the semi-circle OR the back-step at the start of dancing. Most classes I've visited recently are still teaching this stepping apart to start dancing. Are any still teaching the semi-circle.

And how's it going at Ceroc? Are they still doing semi-circles on the stage but not saying they're doing them? Or are they using a different starter step?

And what is happening at the other classes around the country?

[philsmove]

ceroc seem to start with what they call "the basic" no semi-circle no instruction on which foot to step back on

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VhavJlI1Yo

the leroc classes in Bristol still teach the dreaded arm jerk ( push me pull you )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3f-m7cGhmFw

[Prian]

Never heard of being told which foot to step back on just to make sure it wasn't both

But always liked the semi circle, adds shape to the moves.

[Franck]

Ceroc is doing great, thanks Andy
As philsmove posted, beginners classes start with a basic step, great for building confidence and adding instant dynamism to the dance.
The semi-circle was dropped a couple of years ago, I always liked having it, but happy with a more subtle lead now too...

You really need to come and visit us in Scotland, you have threatened to do so in the past, though I suppose it's fair, since I haven't been to any of your classes yet either... Would be fun to exchange tips on which foot to step back on

[Andy McGregor]

Ceroc is doing great, thanks Andy

Glad to hear things are going well in Scotland.

As philsmove posted, beginners classes start with a basic step, great for building confidence and adding instant dynamism to the dance.
The semi-circle was dropped a couple of years ago, I always liked having it, but happy with a more subtle lead now too...

I like to start with a basic step too. My starter step is different but similar to the one used in the video posted by philsmove.

On the subject of subtle lead. I've watched the video and it looks like a subtle semi-circle a lot of the time

You really need to come and visit us in Scotland, you have threatened to do so in the past, though I suppose it's fair, since I haven't been to any of your classes yet either...

You're welcome at my classes any time. You could even be a guest teacher if you like.

And I'd be delighted to come up and guest teach for you. I taught an advanced lesson for Ceroc a few weeks ago and it was fun. It seems that non CTA trained teachers can teach advanced lessons.

Would be fun to exchange tips on which foot to step back on

It would be, if I stepped back

[cederic]

beginners classes start with a basic step, great for building confidence and adding instant dynamism to the dance

It also gets beginners used to following a simple in-out lead, which makes it very easy for less capable leads (i.e. me) to help them start moving in time to the music. That then gives me the platform to lead them through a selection of 'beginner' moves that I'd have struggled to go straight into, had they not been comfortable with the simple in-out.

Only seen a semi-circle start taught once in the last 18 months, whether at Ceroc or other venues. I don't miss it.

[Franck]

It also gets beginners used to following a simple in-out lead, which makes it very easy for less capable leads (i.e. me) to help them start moving in time to the music. That then gives me the platform to lead them through a selection of 'beginner' moves that I'd have struggled to go straight into, had they not been comfortable with the simple in-out.

Only seen a semi-circle start taught once in the last 18 months, whether at Ceroc or other venues. I don't miss it.

Yes, beginners (especially men) often need a few simple filler moves and the 'Basic' allows them breathing room between other moves they know.

[Maxine]

Have not been to ceroc or any other modern jive class for a couple of years. What I have noticed is that ceroc has really evolved since my early days. It is a lot less bouncy and more slotted. I think the semi circle step back probably added to the bounciness, so if it is no longer being taught it is because the dance has moved on.

[Whitebeard]

ceroc seem to start with what they call "the basic" no semi-circle no instruction on which foot to step back on

Nice to see no evidence of hand-bounce here in this teaching practice of beginner moves; but the semi-circle does make a (reasonably restrained) appearance. Which illustrates how firmly embedded into muscle-memory such habits, good and bad, can and do become. (And I know it's not Helen's doing.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VhavJlI1Yo

the leroc classes in Bristol still teach the dreaded arm jerk ( push me pull you )

I know you have a foot in both camps Phil. Are they, the Leroc people, really as insular as they appear to be; having little contact with and appreciation of the wider Modern Jive communinity outside the confines of Bristol?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3f-m7cGhmFw

[Andy McGregor]

Nice to see no evidence of hand-bounce here in this teaching practice of beginner moves; but the semi-circle does make a (reasonably restrained) appearance. Which illustrates how firmly embedded into muscle-memory such habits, good and bad, can and do become. (And I know it's not Helen's doing.)

As I said earlier, there is still a semi-circle. But I agree there is no hand-bounce. The woman's posture is lovely. She keeps her elbow pointing at the floor which keeps her shoulders relaxed and down. The man's posture is different from the lady's and is mostly the result of a straight left arm as he leads the lady's rock step and steps a little too far from his partner - just fine for a social dancer but would get Craig giving low scores on Strictly.

I know you have a foot in both camps Phil. Are they, the Leroc people, really as insular as they appear to be; having little contact with and appreciation of the wider Modern Jive communinity outside the confines of Bristol?

The LeRoc people in this clip are from the North West, not Bristol at all.

I don't like or teach the push-me-pull-you style arm jive that's being taught here. Or the semi-circle - did I mention that? However, they both have nice posture.

[Whitebeard]

As I said earlier, there is still a semi-circle. But I agree there is no hand-bounce. The woman's posture is lovely. She keeps her elbow pointing at the floor which keeps her shoulders relaxed and down. .........

Hellen is one of those lovely follows who half convinces me that I'm a half decent leader ......

LeRoc people in this clip are from the North West, not Bristol at all.

I am, was, well aware of that but this was the clip that Phil found to illustrate his point.

I really do feel that some teachers' need to reappraise the direction and development of MJ, in the wider context, and modify their approach to teaching.

[Andy McGregor]

I really do feel that some teachers' need to reappraise the direction and development of MJ, in the wider context, and modify their approach to teaching.

I totally agree with this. I'm sure that most MJ teachers think the same. The problem is that we all think we're getting it right and it's ALL the other MJ teachers who need to change to be like us.

I believed this so strongly I joined the LeRoc Federation, got on to the national committee in a position to develop moves and influence continuing professional development of MJ teachers and teacher training. Guess what? I couldn't even get agreement on a date for a meeting to get the ball rolling

[philsmove]

I know you have a foot in both camps Phil. Are they, the Leroc people, really as insular as they appear to be; having little contact with and appreciation of the wider Modern Jive communinity outside the confines of Bristol?

I would say the majority of "Leroc" dancers also go to some Ceroc freestyles

Someone did tell me, he does not go to Ceroc, as the ladies do not understand his hand signals

Some Leroc teachers do go to Ceroc freestyles and the odd class but many don't and are completely unaware of the changes that have happened in the last 20 years

Most Leroc DJs, are aware of the changes that have occurred in music tastes but still prefer to keep to their tried and tested play lists

The good news is, there are some young Leroc teachers, who are completely up to date and through the University Club are teaching some amazing young dancers

We also have a few "independents" near Bristol, who do not use the Leroc name

[philsmove]

I really do feel that some teachers' need to reappraise the direction and development of MJ, in the wider context, and modify their approach to teaching.

it really would be good if leads were not taught the arm jerk

it really is a horrible move

it may be taught smoothly and correctly, as in the clip I posted

but many leads, seem end up with a very jerky style and get upset when a follow, used to smoother style, refuses to dance with them

[Andy McGregor]

Someone did tell me, he does not go to Ceroc, as the ladies do not understand his hand signals

Sorry, I chuckled out loud to this one.

My take on hand signals in social dancing is that they signal someone hasn't been taught correct lead and follow. The one that amazes me most is the "how" signal for the move called "inside neck break". The moves works exactly the same without the signal. But I still see people doing this signal who started dancing recently. My guess is that they're simply showing they are not holding a weapon

I tell my students that signals are needed for unleadable moves. And that I always teach leadable moves. There is a place for unleadable moves in cabaret or competition, but, IMHO not on the social dance floor - I also tell my students that a guy who knew enough signals could probably lead his partner by signalling from the bar - which sort of misses the point of a social dance*.

*Unless she's dancing around a pole and you are signalling "get em off" with folded £20 notes

[philsmove]

Sorry, I chuckled out loud to this one.

I should, perhaps, point out he learnt to dance ~ 20 years ago and probably, has not been to a lesson since

[Andy McGregor]

I should, perhaps, point out he learnt to dance ~ 20 years ago and probably, has not been to a lesson since

I think you might, more accurately say he's been signalling, for the last 2 decades, that we hasn't been taught to dance at all. He may have been taught to indicate through hand signals the dance he thinks the lady will enjoy - rather like the small person in the bottom right of my TV screen who does signing for the deaf, it's communication. But it's not a proper lead and follow dance.

[philsmove]

I think you might, more accurately say he's been signalling, for the last 2 decades, .....

I think this guy may have gone to the same class https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjz6pK34rss

his style is very similar

[Prian]

I was always under the impression that the semi circle was primarily to indicate to your partner that you were ready to start dancing, instead of having to shout over the music. How is that done now?

[cederic]

Well, I just dragged her onto the floor. Isn't that enough of a signal?

Seriously, I (finally) don't get onto the floor, stop, stand and face my partner, then start dancing. I'll use her momentum as she walks onto the floor to turn or spin her, or block her and move into a closer move, or something.

Lets face it, doing a WCS style whip when she thinks she's still walking to a clear bit of floor lets her know you're ready