Dancing in time - Finding the beat.

[Franck]

On my quest to read through old Forum threads, here was an interesting one (from 2004) about tips on dancing in time ( http://forum.cerocscotland.com/showthre ... ng-in-time ).

Since that thread (8 years ago ) I have come a long way in my own dancing, and taught many workshops focused on timing and musicality, but this topic is still one that can seem tricky to new dancers.

So, keeping in mind this thread is in the Beginners Corner, I'd love to read some of the tips you have used, encountered, used as teachers, etc.

Franck.

[NZ Monkey]

The best advice I think I've seen for getting beginners to dance on time is to get them literally marking time with their steps. Make it explicit that one beat = one step.

That's essentially the origin of step footwork, but I'll leave any mention of what foot to start with for other threads . I know a lot of people don't agree with the step footwork method on some sort of general principle, but in my experience it works wery well. Eventually the students get comfortable enough with the timing that they can stop doing that if they prefer, but they may never have gotten to that stage if they hadn't been taught step footwork from the start.

[David Bailey]

As a dancer, the thing I always had trouble with, in all dances, is "getting started". Once I'm started, I'm like clockwork, but it's finding the right point at which to start which always caused me problems.

So for me, it'd have been really helpful to have a "how to get going" workshop - listening to various pieces of music, and finding a good start point for each track.

Admittedly, that's just me - others may have totally different issues.

[Franck]

The best advice I think I've seen for getting beginners to dance on time is to get them literally marking time with their steps. Make it explicit that one beat = one step.

That's essentially the origin of step footwork, but I'll leave any mention of what foot to start with for other threads . I know a lot of people don't agree with the step footwork method on some sort of general principle, but in my experience it works wery well. Eventually the students get comfortable enough with the timing that they can stop doing that if they prefer, but they may never have gotten to that stage if they hadn't been taught step footwork from the start.

I think 'step footwork' can make a difference, the problem becomes how to 'step out' of it once you do have the beat sorted, as it can look and feel a bit mechanical...

[Franck]

As a dancer, the thing I always had trouble with, in all dances, is "getting started". Once I'm started, I'm like clockwork, but it's finding the right point at which to start which always caused me problems.

So for me, it'd have been really helpful to have a "how to get going" workshop - listening to various pieces of music, and finding a good start point for each track.

Admittedly, that's just me - others may have totally different issues.

Do you mean in Tango or MJ?

I find that when I start a tango dance, it takes me ages, simply to ensure my partner is balanced the way I expect, and to launch myself into the flow of the dance.

For MJ, it also depends, but we've added to our beginners workshops, different ways to get started. Instead of just standing we get beginners to start with a travelling return or the basic for example to get them moving without over thinking it.

[David Bailey]

Do you mean in Tango or MJ?

Pretty much everything - I found it a real issue with salsa and chacha (Lory still has to get me started if she wants me to dance "on 2" in chacha). Tango is easier, there are few musical restrictions.

For MJ, it also depends, but we've added to our beginners workshops, different ways to get started. Instead of just standing we get beginners to start with a travelling return or the basic for example to get them moving without over thinking it.

How about "walking on to the dance floor in time"? We did an interesting experiment in a (Tango) workshop last year where we got the leaders to "dance" towards the followers when asking them to dance - made a real difference to the way the entire dance progressed.

[daveb9000]

A soon as I'm asked to dance (or have invited someone to dance), I'm counting the beats (5,6,7,8) so I can send my partner back on the 1 (or the 5). If dancing with a beginner, I'll start with some basics, otherwise I usually start with a traveling return. It actually puts me off if we start on a 3 or a 7 and I end up doing a move to get back on the 1 or 5. I doubt many partners notice, or even seem to mind.

[DavidY]

I found it a real issue with salsa and chacha (Lory still has to get me started if she wants me to dance "on 2" in chacha).

For me,
a) I've had enough dance teachers over the years chanting "4-&-1" at me that I can probably still start a Cha-Cha "on 2" if I wanted to. But it's probably those years of repetition that means I can do it. Also
b) I can usually find beat 1 of a bar without thinking about it, but that might be due to a fairly musical background (playing in school orchestra and such-like).

For Cha-Cha you need to combine the two things (knowing which bit of the bar you're aiming at, and being able to hear that bit of the bar going past in the music) before you can dance on that beat.

[Andy McGregor]

I think 'step footwork' can make a difference, the problem becomes how to 'step out' of it once you do have the beat sorted, as it can look and feel a bit mechanical...

I think there is a misconception about "step footwork". When I watch MJ freestyle I don't see any other kind of footwork 99% of the time. But they might not think they are doing "step footwork" because they are not always moving their feet, just transferring their weight. And they are not looking mechanical either.

Consider a simple rock step, there's 3 weight changes but only one step. For the lady/follow they start with their weight L on an up-beat step back R on the down beat and replace their weight on to their stationary L on the next up beat. There is nothing mechanical about this step, but it is "step" footwork as there's a weight change on every beat.

I think the problem is to do with the description "step footwork" not accurately reflecting what's going on. It sounds like there should always be a step on every beat. This is not what is going on in basic MJ, there's simply a weight change on every beat. And it's just the basic - you can always vary the basic once you've got the basics.

When it comes to dancing in time, this does not require a partner. If anything it is confused by the addition of a partner - especially if that partner can't dance in time! What I find works very well at getting beginners, or even experienced-but-badly-taught MJ dancers, to dance to the beat is strolls, line dances, individual exercises to music, etc. This gets them used to stepping on every beat, but also used to weight transfers in place without a foot movement, using syncopated steps between beats and keeping the weight on one foot for two beats. Just last night was teaching an end of night stroll and using the short-call which fitted the 3 steps in place movement over 2 beats "triple-in-place".

[Franck]

I should have known you would pop up is any mention of footwork was made

I think there is a misconception about "step footwork". When I watch MJ freestyle I don't see any other kind of footwork 99% of the time. But they might not think they are doing "step footwork" because they are not always moving their feet, just transferring their weight. And they are not looking mechanical either.

I agree that step footwork is not necessarily mechanical, but if you introduce the concept to someone who is struggling to find / keep the beat, it often becomes mechanical, and is a hard habit to shake once engrained.

When it comes to dancing in time, this does not require a partner. If anything it is confused by the addition of a partner - especially if that partner can't dance in time! What I find works very well at getting beginners, or even experienced-but-badly-taught MJ dancers, to dance to the beat is strolls, line dances, individual exercises to music, etc. This gets them used to stepping on every beat, but also used to weight transfers in place without a foot movement, using syncopated steps between beats and keeping the weight on one foot for two beats. Just last night was teaching an end of night stroll and using the short-call which fitted the 3 steps in place movement over 2 beats "triple-in-place".

That's true and a good way to get people to feel the beat of the music, but some people will be able to find the beat by themselves, but struggle once they do have a partner, maybe they become shy, respond badly to 'performance anxiety', start worrying about leading and lose the music in the process...

[DavidB]

Andy
I get very confused by some of your descriptions of timings. Can you let me know if this summarises how you describe a first move? If it is correct I can then translate your timings and descriptions into how I understand the dance.



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[geoff332]

I think most of the important stuff has been mentioned already.

One things that I normally only see done in blues teaching is the simple weight change from side to side in time with the music. This does a lot of good things, including finding the beat, moving smoothly, and keeping the knees nice and soft to avoid any evil (aka bouncing). I find this simpler and more effective than stepping on the beat.

I also find a few things that don't necessarily seem directly related are helpful to keeping the beat.

Firstly, get your weight forward to the balls of the feet. If you are trying to step out of your heel (either stepping heel first or flat footed), it takes longer, which knocks people of beat and gets that mechanical stepping going pretty fast.

Secondly, small steps and properly passing your feet. Again, bigger steps or stepping around your own centre take longer and pull the whole dance off balance and out of time.

Thirdly, good frame. If we assume that most people have some innate sense of rhythm, then it's a matter of connecting that sense to their movements. When I'm dancing well, it feels as if my body is keeping time and the steps land on the beat almost by accident.

Finally, more directly related, basic drills are really helpful. The best way to learn to move in time with music is to learn in time with music.

[Andy McGregor]

Andy
I get very confused by some of your descriptions of timings. Can you let me know if this summarises how you describe a first move? If it is correct I can then translate your timings and descriptions into how I understand the dance.



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Hi David, I'm sorry if my descriptions are confusing you. I'll do my best to be more clear in the future.

I'm afraid that the description you've given is completely different from the way I see MJ being danced in the real world, completely different from the way I teach it and different from the version in the LeRoc Handbook.

For the sake of clarity I will talk about musical beats as you would find in the score. I'm going to count in 8s and I'm going to call 1 the start of a phrase. I observe the lady stepping back right on the 1 to start the first move and ALWAYS in every description I've ever seen being turned out to step back RIGHT on beat 5 of the move - your description has her stepping back L on musical beat 5.

Ignoring the lead and follow, here is my footwork description for the first move as I teach it.

Beat 1 - lady steps back R (does not move L) - man steps left L to start clearing the lady's line of dance
Beat 2 - lady steps forward on to L in place - man brings R to L to finish clearing the lady's line
Beat 3 - lady steps forward R - man steps forward L
Beat 4 - lady steps forward L (and starts to pivot R) - man steps back on to R in place
Beat 5 - lady completes turn to face the same way as the man as she steps back R - man steps back L
Beat 6 - lady steps L in place - man steps R in place
Beat 7 - lady steps forward R - man steps forward L
Beat 8 - lady steps forward L as she pivots to her right - man steps R in place
Beat 1 - lady steps back R - man L in whatever direction suits what he's going to do next.

In the version of MJ that i teach it's very unlikely that I'd ever teach a return on the spot after a first move. I would probably add a travelling return to this first move if I was teaching beginners - it would depend on what move was coming next. And I never teach the twist in front as described to "prep the lady for a turn" - this hardly ever happens in freestyle and seems to be something that's taught in lessons. I think that Ceroc have dropped this twist, I'm guessing because it's not done, but you'd have to ask them their reasons.

Below is a clip of people dancing in the Ceroc X category in Wales http://youtu.be/SbaOHx8i508 Watch the couple in the top left, the guy is in black and the lady is wearing white trousers. She is stepping RLRL on the 1234 and on every beat. Just over 20 seconds in they do a first move the lady is turned out and steps right the 5: she's not brought in for the twist, but she is kept walking in the timing that would allow the twist, this means she steps back right on the 3 of the next 8 count. And they don't do a return on the spot but a travelling return.

[DavidB]

Thanks for clearing that up Andy. I had got completely the wrong idea.

[Andy McGregor]

I should have known you would pop up is any mention of footwork was made
I agree that step footwork is not necessarily mechanical, but if you introduce the concept to someone who is struggling to find / keep the beat, it often becomes mechanical, and is a hard habit to shake once engrained.

That's true and a good way to get people to feel the beat of the music, but some people will be able to find the beat by themselves, but struggle once they do have a partner, maybe they become shy, respond badly to 'performance anxiety', start worrying about leading and lose the music in the process...

yer but no but ...

It seems that Franck wants to put me down and disagree with me. However, I've noticed that when I'm right he agrees and then points out the downside with his but. It's almost as if he wants to make me wrong, even when I'm right - and you thought it was only baboons who scared off people with their butts

EVERYTHING we teach has a downside. What we do as professional teachers is tell our students what can go wrong and give them coaching if we see it going wrong. What some do as teachers is try to belittle other teachers with our but because we know the down side. What I'm doing is simply sticking up for myself - and not using a but in the process.

p.s. Does Franck want people to give their opinion and share their knowledge on here? Or will I see his but every time I post something I think is interesting? Am I taking it personally? Yes I am! Even the mild mannered David Barker seemed to follow Franck's lead and attempt to make me wrong

p.p.s. Thankfully David has the manners to admit when he's misunderstood what I've written

[NZ Monkey]

I should have known you would pop up is any mention of footwork was made
I agree that step footwork is not necessarily mechanical, but if you introduce the concept to someone who is struggling to find / keep the beat, it often becomes mechanical, and is a hard habit to shake once engrained.

Forgive the pun, but one does have to take things one step at a time.

If somebody is struggling to find the beat, and you give them a tool that (in my experience, and apparently others as well) teaches them where the beat is and keeps them on it, I consider that a good thing.

I could make the same, or similar, argument against any other method you could choose to make. Bouncing the hand, for example, is a time-honoured tradition among MJer's for marking time – and it works - but comes with an entire set of other problems all of its own. Swaying from side-to-side can do the same, but mucks with your body placement on occasion when you need to be in the right place at the right time.

If someone needs help finding the beat they usually have trouble moving to it as well, and step footwork provides a method where you can address both these issues at the same time. That's worth a little retraining further down the line, if necessary, in my opinion….and I’m not convinced it’s necessary all that often anyway. Step footwork may not be the only way, but I've not come across any I think are strictly better either.

That's true and a good way to get people to feel the beat of the music, but some people will be able to find the beat by themselves, but struggle once they do have a partner, maybe they become shy, respond badly to 'performance anxiety', start worrying about leading and lose the music in the process...

It sounds to me like you're trying to lump the "socially awkward" issue into the "can't move in time to the music" issue. I don't see that the two are related.

[Franck]

yer but no but ...

It seems that Franck wants to put me down and disagree with me. However, I've noticed that when I'm right he agrees and then points out the downside with his but. It's almost as if he wants to make me wrong, even when I'm right - and you thought it was only baboons who scared off people with their butts

Ther was no attempt to put you down, I was agreeing with you, but felt I had to point out why I had stated that ' step footwork' could appear mechanical.

I do want more ideas and opinions, so go for it, and if I can think of anything to add, I'll post it too!

[Franck]

Forgive the pun, but one does have to take things one step at a time.

If somebody is struggling to find the beat, and you give them a tool that (in my experience, and apparently others as well) teaches them where the beat is and keeps them on it, I consider that a good thing.

I could make the same, or similar, argument against any other method you could choose to make. Bouncing the hand, for example, is a time-honoured tradition among MJer's for marking time – and it works - but comes with an entire set of other problems all of its own. Swaying from side-to-side can do the same, but mucks with your body placement on occasion when you need to be in the right place at the right time.

As it happens, I had this very example in mind when I posted, the hand bouncing has become so ingrained in some, that for a while it almost became a defining feature of the dance (and not in a good way).

I would love to find a better way, with fewer side effects. The best I have at the moment is getting everyone to sway (basic weight transfers) first by themselves during the Ceroc Essentials, and then at the start of a practise to music (with no hand movements, only body-led sway).

[geoff332]

I would love to find a better way, with fewer side effects. The best I have at the moment is getting everyone to sway (basic weight transfers) first by themselves during the Ceroc Essentials, and then at the start of a practise to music (with no hand movements, only body-led sway).

If the problem is simply moving to a beat, then why not take the music out of the equation. When I've really had to work on timing, I've even danced to a metronome. If that's going too far, then I'd pick music with a really obvious beat and as little else going on in the track as possible. This means that they have to do less to try and find the beat and can focus on moving to the music.

If the problem is hearing a beat in music, then it might be easier to not try and move. Counting, snapping fingers, tapping feet, or clapping all help find the beat - without the messy complication of having to remember where your feet are meant to be at the same time. From there, you can progress to moving.

[Andy McGregor]

or clapping all help find the beat

If you get them clapping you need to make sure they clap on every beat. Many people clap on the 2 & 4. I think that the best way to get people stepping on every beat is to get them stepping on every beat. They managed to walk from the car park,RLRL or LRLR. How hard is it to get them doing the same thing to a beat?