Teaching. Bad Dancers/Great Teachers vs. Great Dancers/Bad Teachers

[Andy McGregor]

I'm interested in this idea. I think I could establish basic standards to the way i'm personally dancing at the moment. But no doubt they wouldn't be the same standards someone else would apply to their Mj.

I think that standards change over time. And there's no reason why a standards body can't change. Consider minimum safety standards: there's a huge difference nowadays compared to 50 years ago. But those people half a century ago did their best at the time. They didn't say, "let's not bother until standards improve", they set the standard. And then they raised standards over time. The advantage of setting a standard is that you can measure performance against that standard.

What I'd love to see happen in MJ at large is a setting of minimum standards. In my experience this is going to be difficult. I have now come to the conclusion that the only way to do this is to start an organisation from scratch. Old organisations have a history that they can't shake off and are resistant to change, even if they recognise the need for change.

[David Bailey]

I think that standards change over time. And there's no reason why a standards body can't change. Consider minimum safety standards: there's a huge difference nowadays compared to 50 years ago. But those people half a century ago did their best at the time. They didn't say, "let's not bother until standards improve", they set the standard. And then they raised standards over time. The advantage of setting a standard is that you can measure performance against that standard.

Yes - I'd go further and say that the problem is not defining standards, the problem is in defining an open, community-wide process to define (and communicate, maintain, implement, test and update) the standards.

Without such a process, the actual standards are irrelevant. I could sit down tomorrow and define "DavidJive" standards, they'd be just as "valid" as Ceroc standards, they'd just have less adherents.

Everyone wants to define standards, no-one wants to define process.

So I'm not holding my breath.

[Andy McGregor]

So I'm not holding my breath.

Go on, you know you want to.

I think that an independent standards body could be set up for MJ. Something like a trade association where members agree to maintain certain standards. You'd need mystery shoppers just like restaurants and hotels to ensure standards are maintained. All do-able, but who'd do it?

[Gerry]

Go on, you know you want to.

I think that an independent standards body could be set up for MJ. Something like a trade association where members agree to maintain certain standards. You'd need mystery shoppers just like restaurants and hotels to ensure standards are maintained. All do-able, but who'd do it?

Surely these mystery people would need to be teachers to be able to make a decision on the class and the ability of the teacher to show the moves and pass on the correct information.

I think Mike Ellard regularly travels the country and goes to each venue to see how things are progressing

[Andy McGregor]

Surely these mystery people would need to be teachers to be able to make a decision on the class and the ability of the teacher to show the moves and pass on the correct information.

Yes they would need to be teachers - and very experienced teachers too. The difficulty is that professional dance teachers expect to get paid.

Any trade body which set standards would need to charge venue operators enough to pay teachers to be mystery shoppers. Why would that venue operator pay to join unless they could see a positive effect from their membership?

I think Mike Ellard regularly travels the country and goes to each venue to see how things are progressing

The problem is that Mike Ellard can't really be a mystery shopper and won't see the venue on an average night as a consequence. He'd have to be in disguise and pay to come in to ensure that people behaved normally - now I think about it, we did have a woman turn up who looked a bit like Mr Ellard

[philsmove]

The problem is that Mike Ellard can't really be a mystery shopper and won't see the venue on an average night as a consequence. He'd have to be in disguise and pay to come in to ensure that people behaved normally :

He turned up at two of my local venues, clearly the teachers knew who he was, but none of us, he joined in the lesson and spent most of the evening talking and dancing

The only difference to a standard night was the class started on time , and has continued to to do so ever since

I don't think a poor teacher ,is suddenly going to be a good one, just because Mike is there

[Lynn]

He turned up at two of my local venues, clearly the teachers knew who he was, but none of us, he joined in the lesson and spent most of the evening talking and dancing

He turned up at one of our venues and most of the dancers didn't know who he was - as far as they were concerned he was just another visiting dancer. So he did get a reasonably representative night, even some of the taxis didn't know who he was.

I don't think a poor teacher ,is suddenly going to be a good one, just because Mike is there

Possibly the opposite - knowing Mike or similar is in the class would probably make the teacher a bit nervous and they mightn't teach as well as normal.

[Andy McGregor]

I don't think a poor teacher ,is suddenly going to be a good one, just because Mike is there

This isn't the danger. The danger is that a good teacher will become a nervous teacher and perform worse than usual because Mr Ellard is there. This means that customers might be short-changed - they are getting a lesser performance from a nervous teacher because of an internal company process.

Edit - I wrote this before reading Lynn's post. We think so much alike

[Rocky]

At the end of the day many dancers don't really care... they should of course, but generally there are enough people out there who wouldn't know what a good venue, teacher or music set look like, to sustain any number of people who want to set themselves up as dance teachers.

What DOES matter is having a good time, meeting people and doing something more active than sitting on your backside at home in front of the TV. So if a night offers that they're not going to care too much about the quality of teaching.

That's not to say that it is still extremley irritating to teachers who apply high standards to what they do and to organizers who run nights to the best of their ability.

An example of what I find irritating is of a new (probably one off event) down on the South Coast at a prestigious and unusual venue. There's no classes, so it's just a freestyle and it's touted as having multiple rooms, and is actually an expensive night out.

All well and good, but the floors are pretty awful overall (and I know 'cos I've been there..) the dance spaces are very small compared to the pictures actually shown, there's no flow between the rooms as it's quite difficult to get between them, and get this.. it's likely (unless you want to walk a fair distance) to cost punters an additional £8 to park for the duration of the event! Of course there's no mention of any of that in the promo stuff.

But people will go and no doubt some of them will rave about it despite IMO that they have actually been ripped off.

I've just learned that (apart from this little rant) it's best not to worry about what other people are doing and just to concentrate on doing the best job you can - at least then you can live with yourself even if you are broke!

[rtwwpad]

Mr ford summed it up best over a century ago. If I'd listened to my customers I would have given them a faster horse

[Andy McGregor]

An example of what I find irritating is of a new (probably one off event) down on the South Coast at a prestigious and unusual venue. There's no classes, so it's just a freestyle and it's touted as having multiple rooms, and is actually an expensive night out.

When I started reading this I wondered if Rocky was having a dig at me as I'm on the South Coast. On reading further it didn't match anything I'm doing so I took a deep breath and read further.

Rocky does make a lot of sense - annoyingly

I don't know what event he's talking about - the 'South Coast' is very long.

I think Rocky is pointing out a situation we all endure. Some of us make realistic claims about our products and try not to overclaim. We do this because we want people to come back so we have a sustainable business in the long term. We don't want them to be disappointed when they come to our events and see that the 3 rooms are actually sheds. On the other hand, you can say what you like about a one-off event so long as you don't lie.

[DavidY]

You'd need mystery shoppers just like restaurants and hotels to ensure standards are maintained. All do-able, but who'd do it?

When I was taxiing (for Ceroc), we were told that mystery shoppers might come and visit. This was a few years ago now though.

I also found an email, from around that time, from my local franchise with recruitment opportunities including:

Mystery Shoppers

The Role
In this paid role you will have the opportunity to visit the Ceroc venues in your locality (as a customer) and then evaluate your experience providing us with feedback about the night.

Requirements
• We are particularly interested in applications from (new)er members of Ceroc
• Must possess a full driving license
• Good communication skills (written and oral)

So the idea was being actively pursued.

I don't know whether it took off or not, or whether it's still going on...

[jim]

Slightly off topic but I'm curious about how people (or ceroc) arrange their lessons or their teaching.

Do you sit, down create a list of beginners techniques and intermediate technique. Then select moves to show thoes techniques.

Or do you start with core moves then exstract technique from them.

what are the techniques you want to teach? lead-follow, frame, compression(push), suspension(pull), spotting, shaping......

Do you just have a list of beginners and intermediate moves?

Do you just have beginners list and tailor the rest to the class?

Do your all your moves have scripts, just some, are they just decribeded, are only some of them described?


So how do you arrange your lessons. And in another way I also think .... how do you arranged your dance?

[meghann]

I'm currently studying information & knowledge management and the issue of 'managing' the kind of tacit (non-codified, internal) knowledge embodied by dancing is something I've thought about a lot. So, call me a geek but this conversation is very interesting to me

Secondly, a teacher may need to provide an exemplar of what they are teaching. This is certainly true in dancing, where "monkey see, monkey do" is the dominant mode of learning. This extends to the teacher dancing with people, where they have to dance well with people to help them get the feel of the move.

Thirdly, a teacher needs to articulate what you should be doing. You can't see everything you need to know about dancing (for example, you can't easily see tension or frame unless you already know what they are). So the teacher needs to explain this to people.

Fourthly, a teacher needs to understand how their 'class' learn. This refers to both how people learn within a class and the progressive learning over time. My feeling is the former is done well by Ceroc, but the latter comes down to the individual teacher (and it's this that will actually set the tone for a venue).

I recall reading something about the theory of learning styles. One way of classifying the ways different people learn is visual, auditory, reading/writing (doesn't really apply to dance) and kinaesthetic/tactile. As has already been said, teachers need to be able to provide the right visual and auditory cues for learning. But that's doesn't really help the people, myself included, who primarily learn kinaesthetically.

So the way I learn during classes is to wait until I'm with someone who is a visual/auditory learner, and then learn it by following them.

Which leads me on to....

Yes - I'd go further and say that the problem is not defining standards, the problem is in defining an open, community-wide process to define (and communicate, maintain, implement, test and update) the standards.

One of the ways in which knowledge is managed is through what's called communities of practice. These are basically groups of people with a common interest (be it work, hobby etc.) and who also have a mutual interest in sharing what they know about it. I learn far more by dancing socially than I do in classes. Mostly by making a fool of myself, but I don't like to take dancing too seriously

A possible conclusion might be that the best thing that can be done to improve learning MJ (note learning, rather than teaching) is to keep on dancing with beginners, however good you are. Some people are really good at this but others really aren't...and that's my pet peeve about the jive community

</academic geekery>

[David Bailey]

I recall reading something about the theory of learning styles. One way of classifying the ways different people learn is visual, auditory, reading/writing (doesn't really apply to dance) and kinaesthetic/tactile. As has already been said, teachers need to be able to provide the right visual and auditory cues for learning. But that's doesn't really help the people, myself included, who primarily learn kinaesthetically.

Yes, I'm familiar with the theory.

But in my experience "I learn kinaesthetically" is too often used an excuse for "I can't be bothered to actually learn". It's on the same order of thing as people who denigrate technique and discipline because it "hampers their creativity". Which, again, is usually a front for "I can't be bothered".

So the way I learn during classes is to wait until I'm with someone who is a visual/auditory learner, and then learn it by following them.

How do you learn it then? Sounds like you're simply memorising a sequence of movements... that's not the same as learning to follow.

I learn far more by dancing socially than I do in classes.

Well, there's a good chance that's simply because the classes are rubbish.

A possible conclusion might be that the best thing that can be done to improve learning MJ (note learning, rather than teaching) is to keep on dancing with beginners, however good you are. Some people are really good at this but others really aren't...and that's my pet peeve about the jive community

The more you dance with beginners, the better you get at dancing with beginners. That's not quite the same as "the better you get at dancing", however.

Too much dancing with beginners and you tend to find that you're less able to dance with people at other levels - this is a typical thing that happens with some taxi dancers.

[meghann]

How do you learn it then? Sounds like you're simply memorising a sequence of movements... that's not the same as learning to follow.

Good point - now that I think about it, it's backleading that I learn to do memorising the movements (not that I make a habit of backleading). When I do classes as a leader I mostly figure it out by knowing where the follower is meant to be going from my experience as a follower. I'm not sure how I learnt to follow.

But I do know that when someone just tells me verbally how to lead a move, or I read about the movements required, or I just watch it without following along, I don't learn it. Dancing, specifically leading, is one of a very few things I've encountered that I don't learn well audio-visually.

The more you dance with beginners, the better you get at dancing with beginners. That's not quite the same as "the better you get at dancing", however.

Too much dancing with beginners and you tend to find that you're less able to dance with people at other levels - this is a typical thing that happens with some taxi dancers.

I meant that the beginners benefit with dancing from better dancers. Or, perhaps I'm just extrapolating too far from my own experiences.

I'm sorry if I caused offense with my previous post - I should have explicitly stated that it was just my little-qualified opinion.

[Minnie M]

....The more you dance with beginners, the better you get at dancing with beginners. That's not quite the same as "the better you get at dancing", however.

Too much dancing with beginners and you tend to find that you're less able to dance with people at other levels - this is a typical thing that happens with some taxi dancers.

[David Bailey]

Good point - now that I think about it, it's backleading that I learn to do memorising the movements (not that I make a habit of backleading). When I do classes as a leader I mostly figure it out by knowing where the follower is meant to be going from my experience as a follower. I'm not sure how I learnt to follow.

But I do know that when someone just tells me verbally how to lead a move, or I read about the movements required, or I just watch it without following along, I don't learn it. Dancing, specifically leading, is one of a very few things I've encountered that I don't learn well audio-visually.

Fair enough

But I was mainly referring to the aspects of dancing which can't be learnt in that way.

I meant that the beginners benefit with dancing from better dancers. Or, perhaps I'm just extrapolating too far from my own experiences.

Again, beginners will have better dances with better dancers. I'm not sure beginners will actually benefit themselves however - for example, a beginner follower with an advanced leader will often find that her mistakes are corrected for her, by her partner.

But she'll still make those mistakes with a less experienced dancer.

I'm sorry if I caused offense with my previous post - I should have explicitly stated that it was just my little-qualified opinion.

Don't be silly, this is a discussion forum, we discuss stuff

[Andy McGregor]

Don't be silly, this is a discussion forum, we discuss stuff

And some people on here are quite prepared to speak with seeming authority when they really haven't a clue ...

.. they might even say they're experts.

I prefer meghann's humility

[Prian]

Possibly the opposite - knowing Mike or similar is in the class would probably make the teacher a bit nervous and they mightn't teach as well as normal.

Does Mike have that effect on people? I don't think James did.