Bliss 2011 Aftermath

[Twirly]

Am very surprised not to have seen a Camber aftermath thread already up. Are people no longer interested in reviews? Or does this say something about this particular weekender?

Personally, I had a very mixed time. I wasn’t particularly looking forward to it, and almost put my ticket up for sale. Friday night and Saturday afternoon I did not enjoy at all. Far too many women, not enough men I am quite happy to ask, but when all you can see is a sea of women and a couple of exhausted looking men lurking at the back with a towel/drink, it’s very dispiriting I had a good old gripe about it though (and others shared my feelings). I didn’t particularly want to do any of the classes other than the tango (I did stay on after the first tango class to see if it was worth doing the subsequent blues class – but with women lining up from the front to the back of the room, I didn’t bother). So with only the freestyle to keep me occupied, quite frankly, I was bored. Not a complaint I’ve ever had on a weekender before.

Saturday night I put my red dress on and went over thinking that I’d probably end up sitting around all evening feeling bored again. I could not have been more wrong. I didn’t have to ask anyone to dance for the first two hours – the first hour downstairs, the second in the milonga. When I returned to the COZ, the gender imbalance was somewhat more in evidence again, though I still seemed to be able to dance as much as I wanted even if I was asking more. When my energy levels started to flag, I popped upstairs to catch up with a couple of friends and had half a dozen fantastic dances up there before realising that I was shattered and it was time to call it a night (relatively early for me on the Saturday).

My energy levels were not what they could have been, as I’d had a cold a week before, and hadn’t realised that I was still a bit “post-viral”. First dance on the Friday night had proved that to me! So when I did start to have fun, I had to pace myself a bit. I didn’t seem to be able to sleep during the day either. And have Pontins been replacing the smoke alarms with hyper-sensitive ones? I set mine off cooking sausages on the Saturday morning. The only way I could stop it was to get on a chair, take it down and get the battery out – and in doing so, fell off the chair and have a badly bruised knee and sore arm Am very lucky I didn’t break something though, as I landed very awkwardly. The wretched thing stayed off the ceiling, but with the battery in, for the rest of the weekend. I heard lots of them going off over the weekend though.

I was really looking forward to the extended Sunday afternoon freestyle. Being a bit knackered, I didn’t get over right at the start as I’d intended. When I did arrive, I heard that there was no-one to dance with. This worried me. If the better dancers are struggling, what chance do I have? But I had a great afternoon. I did a bit more asking than the previous night, and at times the gender balance was a bit uneven, but I still found dances when I wanted them. I left a little before the end, as my feet and legs were complaining, and I was getting to close to suffering from heat exhaustion as it was like dancing in a sauna. There seemed to be less fans than usual, particularly near the stage. I guess that the weather was milder than anticipated, which added to the heat, but more fans next time please! The only thing that could have improved the Sunday afternoon a bit for me was a bit of S’funk… we had a little on the Saturday afternoon, but with such a long freestyle on the Sunday, it would have in fitted well IMO. The extended daytime dancing was a great improvement on previous weekenders, and very busy.

Sunday night I didn’t get over as early as I normally do, and I was getting quite fatigued. I had an OK night (usually, this is my best night). I was fine with this, as the Saturday night and Sunday afternoon had been so good.

This weekender definitely had some issues. Sorry Ceroc, but putting in the brochure that you’ve effectively lost control of your gender balancing policy due to women booking with men who don’t show up and saying you “cannot think of a way of preventing this happening” is a cop out There are a couple of very obvious ways. One is a national membership number policy where the number has to be used to book. (This would also make the selling of tickets/car parking spaces easier to manage and police as you’d need the membership number of the person who’s ticket you were buying.) When the group leader books, they enter all the membership numbers. If you get lots of men being booked for and not turning up on a regular basis, you can analyse the attendance data and find out who the culprits are. Warn them, and if they continue to offend, bar them. Tightening up your procedures may be sufficient to deter offenders. The other is to look at the degree of imbalance resulting from current behaviours and adjust the gender balance accordingly. Selling 500 women’s tickets, 450 men’s tickets but only 400 men turning up? Well reduce the number of female tickets available, and increase the number of men’s tickets. It’s not rocket science.

More fundamental the much greater demand from women than men for dance weekenders. How to address this is more of a mystery, and has been discussed on here before. It would be great if Ceroc could find a way of attracting more men to these events – but then that’s the holy grail of the dance world.

The other main issues were the heat, lack of fans and the sound system in the COZ – one of the speakers kept cutting in and out. This seemed to be fixed for a while, but then started to play up again on the Sunday night. And the heat downstairs also caused the floor to become a bit more sticky than usual (as my knees told me, plaintively). Unusually, the temperature in the milonga’s was just about right.

On the upside, check in was easy as per usual, lots of staff around at all times, fantastic music (particularly Sally Pownall downstairs who seemed to be an almost constant presence ) and great to catch up with the folks I only ever see at dance weekenders. Despite my gripes, it’s probably this that will keep me coming back.

[DJ Mike]

Bit curious that the gender balancing is so horribly off. If there are a lot of women deliberately paying for male places they don't intend to fill, that's a huge amount of selfishness. That Ceroc is admitting to this problem and saying they've 'lost control' makes me think there's a motive behind not doing more to tackle it. As you say, Twirly, they could attach bookings to membership numbers - although this isn't the be all and end all of membership sadly (you can quite easily get a new membership number if you lose your card). They could also be more strict on the check-in desk - large groups have to check in together, warnings issued for all members of a party not turning up, etc. Perhaps all of this is just too zealous or would require too much difficult coordination to be manageable.

[Lory]

Sharing with my sister, who was only on her second ever weekender, I could seriously write 2 completely opposing reviews. One on behalf of 'me', as a more experienced dancer and one on behalf of her, as a newby.

But I'm not going to, as I reckon it'd be boring

But in a nut shell, 'she' had an amazing time and looking at things through her eyes was heartwarmingly refreshing and I enjoyed her enjoyment of it, vicariously.

Apart from the facts about Gender Balancing, missing fans and the duff sound-system downstairs, I think Ceroc have got it bang on the money 'for beginners'

For me, an old hand, who's probably been on more weekenders than most, it sadly takes a bit more nowadays to make a weekender stand out as a 'special' one. And to be honest, I'm not really sure Ceroc has the power, whatever they do, to make it so.

When I look back to what makes the difference to me, its 'the weather', 'the chalet party's' and the 'people' I dance and socialise with.

Of course I like good music, lovely floors, air con not too cold mind), quick check-ins and definitely a good Gender Balance but these things are to be 'expected' nowadays and AFAIC, there's really no excuse for these to be 'off'

But as for the difference between a good weekend and a 'great' weekend, I do think a lot of it is out of the organisers hands.

A quick synopsis of my weekend..

The good

Bloody glad I took my Electric blanket
Sharing with Jane
Winning the quiz with my fab team mates 'Maxine, SunnyBunny, Jane and Flipflop Colin'
The Milonga, which amazingly was one of my highlights this time.
Making the Chalet into a Glamour studio and giving MinnieMouse a Makeover
Seeing my sister improve, gain confidence and have a blast

The Bad

The Gender Balance
No S'funk on Sunday Afternoon
Missing my usual playmates, LimpyTink, Sheena, Zimbabwean, Sandy, Sammy, the Northern Birds and to be honest, most od the regular 'faces'

The Ugly

Feeling envious of that 'beginner excitement' I once had.

[Gerry]

Lory You forgot me, I got at least two of the Quiz questions right ;-)

[Lory]

Lory You forgot me, I got at least two of the Quiz questions right ;-)

Sorry Gerry!

[David Bailey]

On the gender thing:

Friday night and Saturday afternoon I did not enjoy at all. Far too many women, not enough men

There were loads of men over at Berko on Sunday, it was like being in a parallel world. Now I know where all the women were

This weekender definitely had some issues. Sorry Ceroc, but putting in the brochure that you’ve effectively lost control of your gender balancing policy due to women booking with men who don’t show up and saying you “cannot think of a way of preventing this happening” is a cop out

To be fair to Ceroc, at least they're being honest about it. Is "phantom booking" really an issue?

If it is, I'm not sure what can be done about it, short of draconian ID-checking or checking-in rules. I mean, I guess it's possible to track "phantoms" fairly easily, but what can you do about it?

There are a couple of very obvious ways. One is a national membership number policy where the number has to be used to book. (This would also make the selling of tickets/car parking spaces easier to manage and police as you’d need the membership number of the person who’s ticket you were buying.) When the group leader books, they enter all the membership numbers.

I'm not sure if Ceroc HQ actually has a national membership list. In fact, I'm fairly sure they don't; it's franchise-specific I think. It's possible that the numbers themselves are unique, but I'm not even sure about that....

If you get lots of men being booked for and not turning up on a regular basis, you can analyse the attendance data and find out who the culprits are. Warn them, and if they continue to offend, bar them.

Yes, that sounds more practical. Possibly a more diplomatic approach (!) would be to enquire at the first offence whether Phantom Man couldn't make it, and maybe then escalate it on repeat behaviour. Still a lot of admin work - and again, requires Ceroc HQ to actually have the contact details for each attendee and analyse / process them.

Tightening up your procedures may be sufficient to deter offenders. The other is to look at the degree of imbalance resulting from current behaviours and adjust the gender balance accordingly. Selling 500 women’s tickets, 450 men’s tickets but only 400 men turning up? Well reduce the number of female tickets available, and increase the number of men’s tickets. It’s not rocket science.

Didn't they do that previously at Southport with "Male tickets - no accommodation" being offered then?

[Lory]

What I want to know is..

Do women generally have more spare cash than men?

Or do they just accept, that in order to enjoy themselves, they have to spend more money?

[djtrev]

The thing that surprises me is that women book with 'phantom' partners knowing that they might just be sat at the side of the dancefloor most of the weekend because of the imbalance.

[Twirly]

The thing that surprises me is that women book with 'phantom' partners knowing that they might just be sat at the side of the dancefloor most of the weekend because of the imbalance.

Maybe these are the women who don't care if the guy looks exhausted, and they will stalk men coming off the dancefloor so they can get their fix? One friend was asked for a dance as he was leaving - with his coat on! He was too nice to say no... I'm not that rude (I just whinge about it instead).

[Lory]

Maybe these are the women who don't care if the guy looks exhausted, and they will stalk men coming off the dancefloor so they can get their fix? One friend was asked for a dance as he was leaving - with his coat on! He was too nice to say no... I'm not that rude (I just whinge about it instead).

Good point and

[Twirly]

On the gender thing:

There were loads of men over at Berko on Sunday, it was like being in a parallel world. Now I know where all the women were

To be fair to Ceroc, at least they're being honest about it. Is "phantom booking" really an issue?

Yes it is. And I doubt that Ceroc would be admitting to it in the brochure if it wasn't.

If it is, I'm not sure what can be done about it, short of draconian ID-checking or checking-in rules. I mean, I guess it's possible to track "phantoms" fairly easily, but what can you do about it?

I'm not sure if Ceroc HQ actually has a national membership list. In fact, I'm fairly sure they don't; it's franchise-specific I think. It's possible that the numbers themselves are unique, but I'm not even sure about that....

My understanding is that they don't. But that doesn't mean that it's not worth investing in.

Yes, that sounds more practical. Possibly a more diplomatic approach (!) would be to enquire at the first offence whether Phantom Man couldn't make it, and maybe then escalate it on repeat behaviour. Still a lot of admin work - and again, requires Ceroc HQ to actually have the contact details for each attendee and analyse / process them.

All it would take is a decent database. Person booking puts all the membership numbers in. Each envelope with keys has a slip with names and memberships numbers in it, people get ticked off (or they could scan them in as they do at each venue). Afterwards, it doesn't take much to do a bit of analysis to see who has turned up. Patterns of behaviour should show fairly rapidly, and offending females can be told they are not allowed to book with a party including males in the future (that's probably less draconian than barring them altogether, and may stop attempts to just get a different set of membership numbers to carry on the scam).

[FirstMove]

Ceroc ID numbers aren't enough, you need everyone to bring photo ID. Otherwise, there's nothing to stop men getting a bracelet in one group, then cutting it off and being part of another group. Tame men who aren't going can be persuaded to part with their membership cards for the weekend. Nearly all of the ladies I know have dragged their blokes along to at least one Ceroc class and so have a male membership card to spare. There is a danger of taxing well known male dancers, who'll be the only ones who can't queue multiple times as they'll be recognised.

There is also the 'golfing' problem. When I used to go to Southport, the group I went with was a bunch of ladies and their husbands. The ladies danced and the men played golf. The husbands had entry passes/bracelets, but did nothing for the gender balance.

I still think the solution is a live feed of the current male:female ratio on the booking website. If it gets too askew, the over-represented group will stop booking. It also favours people who book later, as those who book early don't know what ratio they're letting themselves in for. Bad for Ceroc's cashflow I guess.

[Minnie M]

Still not sure about this new forum display ............. this is my THIRD attempt !!!!

My personal opinion of course :_

Friday dancing was OK
Saturday eve dancing was better
Sunday hit the spot, really enjoyed both afernoon and evening dancing

There were lots of 'faces' missing which did make a different vibe, and there did seem to be an imbalance of gender, but have to say it didn't bother me too much

Music the whole weekend seemed to be better than previous weekends - Sally Pownell by far my fave DJ

Not sure why they removed some of the fans in the downstairs hall, it got really uncomfortable there at times, and there were problems with the sound system.

BUT the highlight of my weekend was being "Gok'd" by the lovely Lory, I felt like a movie star and certainly looked 10 years younger. I tried to upload one of the photos she took after my make-over, but for some reason I wasn't able to. Check out my FB profile photo.

Thank you Lory for making an old lady very happy, I felt glam and sexy - maybe that is why I enjoyed Sunday so much

[DavidY]

Am very surprised not to have seen a Camber aftermath thread already up. Are people no longer interested in reviews? Or does this say something about this particular weekender?

I think it often takes people till Tuesday to recover enough to be thinking about starting threads.

Didn't they do that previously at Southport with "Male tickets - no accommodation" being offered then?

You mean the "Squatter's rights" thing? Yes they did that at Southport and I believe also for this Bliss weekend.

I still think the solution is a live feed of the current male:female ratio on the booking website. If it gets too askew, the over-represented group will stop booking.

I've an idea that the booking website is already doing this sort of thing behind the scenes, which is why categories tend to go on hold, and also why a chalet category with 6 females and 0 males will often go on hold before a category with 4 females and 2 males.

A few years ago there was also the idea that if a couple booked and collected their wristbands together, they would get some cashback.

Ideally of course, Ceroc would make the events so good that any women with tickets for phantom men can sell them off to real men who are chasing them because demand is so high. (I suspect this already happens with some of the weekenders in summer, making the gender balance situation better.)

[Lory]

Thank you Lory for making an old lady very happy, I felt glam and sexy - maybe that is why I enjoyed Sunday so much

A pure pleasure hun.. It was great to see you emerge like a butterfly!

I've an idea that the booking website is already doing this sort of thing behind the scenes, which is why categories tend to go on hold,

I believe that in reality, the single female SWAS places are never really 'off hold' in the first place?

A few years ago there was also the idea that if a couple booked and collected their wristbands together, they would get some cashback.

Yeah, can someone remind me why that never happened again? I did it and it seemed to work!

Ideally of course, Ceroc would make the events so good that any women with tickets for phantom men can sell them off to real men who are chasing them because demand is so high. (I suspect this already happens with some of the weekenders in summer, making the gender balance situation better.)

Well yeah but I think the biggest hurdle is to part with your money initially. Once its gone out of the bank, it gets increasingly easy to accept it, so maybe that's what happens... ladies book, with the full intention of getting a guy to balance their booking, then months down the line, they've kind of accepted the shortfall?

[David Bailey]

Ceroc ID numbers aren't enough, you need everyone to bring photo ID. Otherwise, there's nothing to stop men getting a bracelet in one group, then cutting it off and being part of another group. Tame men who aren't going can be persuaded to part with their membership cards for the weekend.

Blimey, you're good at this stuff. Are you sure you're a man?

There is also the 'golfing' problem. When I used to go to Southport, the group I went with was a bunch of ladies and their husbands. The ladies danced and the men played golf. The husbands had entry passes/bracelets, but did nothing for the gender balance.

There's two ways you can approach this:
- Treat it as a problem, work "against" it; effectively discriminating against women.
- Treat it as an opportunity, work "with" it; offering more women-friendly classes and similar

The second one looks quite tempting. But of course, that could quite easily exacerbate the situation - eventually you'll have 100 women queueing up to dance with 1 guy.

I must admit, I never understood why men don't want to do partner dancing.

I mean, you're dancing. With women. Where's the bad?

[David Bailey]

You mean the "Squatter's rights" thing? Yes they did that at Southport and I believe also for this Bliss weekend.

Yes, that's the one. Sounds like it's a regular thing. Possibly they'll extend this to offer discount "freestyle-only" tickets to men?

A few years ago there was also the idea that if a couple booked and collected their wristbands together, they would get some cashback.

Yes, there was a 33% discount, wasn't there?

Yeah, can someone remind me why that never happened again? I did it and it seemed to work!

Could be a number of reasons - admin overhead, customer dissatisfaction... I dimly recall a few grumbles on here about it at the time. Or it could be simply that people didn't do it. I suspect that pricing incentives may not be particularly helpful generally.

Ultimately it shows that Ceroc are working quite hard to address the symptoms of the problem. It doesn't address the problem itself however.

[David Bailey]

Ah, here we go... from about 18 months ago:

Well, to be fair what can they do about women booking chalets of equal gender balance with phantom men? The problem is that the weekenders are relatively cheap so some ladies are happy to spend out the extra cash - it guarantees them entry and they get more space in the chalet.

That's why Mike introduced the gender discounts, but this meant people had to arrive together and prove their gender balance to get the discount. This turned out to be really difficult to adminster and dancers didn't seem to like the restriction it put on arrival times, so it was dropped.

So Ceroc have tried and discussed many options, and don't forget they were the first company AFAIK to champion the gender balance route. The crew is even booked on the basis of at least an equal gender balance, and more often than not, is weighted towards more male crew. But if you have any ideas do please PM me with them.

Straight from the, umm, horse's mouth.

[locoman]

i had a splendid time & had some awesome dances with Goodenough, Springer, Coulson, Pownall & Man. I am now officially awesome. The speaker that cut in & out was i think part of the in house system & not Marcs, sorry bout that. i particularly enjoyed sally & rockys sets.

[Rocky]

i had a splendid time & had some awesome dances with Goodenough, Springer, Coulson, Pownall & Man. I am now officially awesome. The speaker that cut in & out was i think part of the in house system & not Marcs, sorry bout that. i particularly enjoyed sally & rockys sets.

Thanks bud, straight back atcha.. Big problems with the electricity supply at Camber this time and for no apparent reason. Pontin's said they hadn't changed anything and yet certain speakers and any added fans would just overload the system and cut everything out - hence the problems with sound and ventilation. On top of that Pontins had decided to re-varnish all the floors with the wrong varnish which led to the stickiness problems, which particularly affected upstairs. Big respect to Mike and all the team who had to cope with all these last minute problems and try to resolve them as best they could.