Correct response to sabotage?

[jim]

What is the correct response to Sabotage?

A) Give more space.

B) Carry on leading as before.

C) Give less space

D) Depends on the situation.



A) Assume that the follower is sending you a ‘message’ of dissatisfaction with your lead. Either that your moves are boring and repetitive or your style is too controlling, or your use of breaks and musicality is lacking.

The solution is to try to change your lead to accommodate them and essentially give them more space to express themselves.

The problem is that some women then accuse me of not leading properly.



B) Assume that the follower is happy with your lead, and assumes that you’ll enjoy being sabotaged.

The solution is not to change anything and carry on leading as before.

The problem is that I feel like an action on her part requires a reaction on mine.

I tried ignoring a Sabotage recently and got Sabotaged a second time straight away just to make sure I got the message. I got the message; she wanted a response. I’m just not sure what that response should have been.



C) Assume that the follower knows that’s she’s being cheeky and therefore expects a reaction.

The solution is to grab her and put her back in her hold, from where she might try and escape again and so-on and so-forth.

The problem is that men use close moves to control troublesome women and women use Sabotage to escape from controlling men. So this could be a fun game of Cat and Mouse or this could be two people about to get in a fist fight. Or one who thinks it’s a fun game and one who thinks their partner is a moron.



D) You could say that different followers use Sabotage for different leads, at different times, for different reasons.

The solution is to become a mind-reading dance God.

The problem; is that this is not going to happen. Only the best leads are going to be able to deal with all the different permutations of Sabotage. This is therefore a totally impractical answer for the vast majority of leads.


So to sum it up, as you can tell; I’m pretty confused.

What is the correct / generic response to Sabotage?

I don't just want to hear from the leads either. I want to know what the followers expect a lead to do after they've been Sabotaged.

I also thought the above might make a nice poll, if any Mod’s are interested.

[Feelingpink]

I have sabotaged in the past. Generally, it's when I want to play and usually not with a beginner lead because it can freak them out. Very, occasionally, it's when I think the leader is behaving like Hitler, I'm bored with three gazillion pretzel turny things, I may as well be a lampost for all the human interraction ... then my sabotaging is the dance version of throwing my toys out of the pram. How you tell that as a leader is to perhaps think back over how much of a connection there seems to be between you and your partner - if it's good - and your lead is more like an invitation, then sabotage is just me asking for playtime.

The solution, IMV, is that early on with a new partner you find out if they like playing, so allow them a little room to play in a move or two and see if you get playfulness or a glare. If you adapt your lead accordingly, this eliminates you having to guess whether sabotage is come from a good, musical place or is just revenge.

[ant]

B) Assume that the follower is happy with your lead, and assumes that you’ll enjoy being sabotaged.

I take it as a compliment when I get sabotaged. I feel that the follower is comfortable with me as a leader and there is something in the music or the way she has been led that gives her some inspiration.

I try to stay aware for when these times happen and let the follower do her thing. I adjust my thinking to try and get into her rhythym and understand what she is trying to do and then lead as and when to compliment that.

I find it another challenge to deal with this type of situation, so we both feel comfortable and enjoy the experience.

My only real issue with sabotage and the few times I have have not liked it is when I have actively been leading a move. I don't think that enough is said about the right time to do this type of thing and about the concept of when the lead "is actively leading a move" and not sabotaging then as this can occassionally be dangereous.

[Maxine]

I don’t think there is a correct response to sabotage because by sabotaging as I have been guilty of doing in occasions (ok a lot of occasions) you’re moving away from the dance rules. So my advice is go with it, respond in a way that feels comfortable, hopefully enjoy it.

If when I’m trying to do a little bit of sabotage and I can feel the leader fighting against it then I would just revert to the correct response.

I hope you do get enjoyment out of the experience though because that’s the whole point of playing

[Lory]

The solution is to become a mind-reading dance God.

No seriously, I think there has to be an element of mind reading involved, as there are 'so' many reasons why girls sabotage.

Like FeelingPink and Maxine, I myself have been known to do it on occasion.

The first reason I'd implement it, is if I was about to be injured ( a badly lead move/drop or I could see that it was too crowded etc)

Secondly.. yes, sometimes I do get bored and I hear things in the music that I want to emphasis, like a break or certain words in the lyrics

Thirdly, its because I know the guy is a great dancer, who treats the dance as a conversation and I'm just having 'my' say

So no, I don't think there's any correct / generic response to Sabotage, just take it as it comes

[martingold]

I take it as a compliment when I get sabotaged. I feel that the follower is

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f when the lead "is actively leading a move" and not sabotaging then as this can occassionally be dangereous.

I don’t think there is a correct response to sabotage because by

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I hope you do get enjoyment out of the experience though because that’s the whole point of playing

i completely agree with both these two posts

when i am dancing i always feel to see what the follow wants to do whats
i also make sure i give my partner some space to interpret the dance as well most will love it one or two give you the what do i do now look
when i will just drop straight back into leading moves because thats their comfort zone

the point in partner dancing if only one partner is choosing all the moves and the other partner is just following
thats not dancing its going through a series of pre learned moves

no matter what they tell you about it when you are learning how many women do you know who will really do as their told

[Brighton Belle]

I have sabotaged in the past. Generally, it's when I want to play and usually not with a beginner lead because it can freak them out. Very, occasionally, it's when I think the leader is behaving like Hitler, I'm bored with three gazillion pretzel turny things, I may as well be a lampost for all the human interraction ... then my sabotaging is the dance version of throwing my toys out of the pram. How you tell that as a leader is to perhaps think back over how much of a connection there seems to be between you and your partner - if it's good - and your lead is more like an invitation, then sabotage is just me asking for playtime.

The solution, IMV, is that early on with a new partner you find out if they like playing, so allow them a little room to play in a move or two and see if you get playfulness or a glare. If you adapt your lead accordingly, this eliminates you having to guess whether sabotage is come from a good, musical place or is just revenge.

I know the guy is leading, but its still a partner dance and a lot of followers (myself included) like to think of it as a 'partnership' and have a bit of imput occasionally. In AT it is usual for the follower to add embellishments and its quite acceptable.

If they guy's OK with it, I would hope he would give me a little scope to play but if he's obviously really uncomfortable then I wouldn't do it again. In fact on several occasions, I have been 'told off' in no uncertain terms.

On the other hand, I have spoken to followers who are non-plussed when the lead efffectively stops and gives the them carte blanche to do anything they like. For an inexperienced follower, this can be equally daunting! 'Help - what do I do now?'

I would agree with Feelingpink - if your follower is an experienced dancer there's a good chance she would like to have a play so give her a bit of leeway and see what happens. If a follower does sabotage, generally I think they're asking for more interaction IMO.

[Brighton Belle]

no matter what they tell you about it when you are learning how many women do you know who will really do as their told

Exactly!! Couldn't have put it better myself

[philsmove]

A sabotage move can be both compliment and a criticism. The message I got from last night from Happy B was "I am getting bored, you can do better than this”

[Agente Secreto]

Jim

I'm in the 'A' camp myself - I love it when the follow does something to show her own interpretation and I always give more space, while of course looking for the opportunity to be more playful myself in return.

I think that that you've got the explanations wrong though. I rarely interpret sabotage as dissatisfaction, in fact quite the reverse. Since any dance is a form of conversation as Lory says it is entirely right that the follow will have their own 'point of view' and will wish to stamp their own interpretation on the dance. Personally, I take it as a vote of satisfaction and confidence in my lead if follows feel like playing when we're on the floor together so in taking 'A' I'm not beating myself up that I'm inadequate or boring.

Agent 000
Licensed to Dance

[martingold]

Exactly!! Couldn't have put it better myself

glad you agree brightone belle you women lead us guys a dogs life
oh and i forgot to say its also nice to stand stil and watch your partner do some work

[ant]

no matter what they tell you about it when you are learning how many women do you know who will really do as their told

Us guys just think we are leading, its a right con job. We just get all the responsability and do what we have to do as set by the woman we are dancing with.

[Minnie M]

What is the correct response to Sabotage? ........

What is Sabotage ?

1. Backleading (i.e not following the lead's move)
2. Using the breaks for self expression
3. Playing with the moves (slowing the move down with wiggles etc)

IMO number one is a defo NO NO, but I have been known to do 1) & 2) but only with the lead's approval - however ALL has to done within the structure of the music

[martingold]

Us guys just think we are leading, its a right con job. We just get all the responsability and do what we have to do as set by the woman we are dancing with.

yeah that i vote for a revolution

What is Sabotage ?

1. Backleading (i.e not following the lead's move)
2. Using the breaks for self expression
3. Playing with the moves (slowing the move down with wiggles etc)

IMO number one is a defo NO NO, but I have been known to do 1) & 2) but only with the lead's approval - however ALL has to done within the structure of the music

as if we have the choice lol

[straycat]

Option D. You don't need to be a mind-reading dance god. Just learn the right tricks of the trade, and practice

[Lory]

Option D. You don't need to be a mind-reading dance god.

You have to agree, it helps though!

[jivecat]

I don't just want to hear from the leads either. I want to know what the followers expect a lead to do after they've been Sabotaged.

Agree with what the other followers have said above about the reasons for sabotaging. I don't see it as a particularly strong skill on my part, took me ages to work out how and when to do it. However I mainly do it because the music is irresistible and my partner is not responding to it. I don't think I'd ever do it because I thought the leader wasn't paying attention to me!

I've never thought about what I expect the lead to do - I guess I expect them to pause, while I do whatever it is I'm planning to do, then resume leading without missing a beat at the right moment. If they can't do that, then I think it's my fault for having inappropriately chosen to sabotage, or messed it up, therefore inconveniencing the leader.

[David Bailey]

What is the correct / generic response to Sabotage?

Finish the dance with your partner, and simply don't dance with her again.

Although I suspect you mean "hijack" rather than "sabotage" from the description.

I've been hijacked. Once last year - first time for several years, come to think of it...

[StokeBloke]

The correct response... not sure. My response is to encourage more. Big grin, lead some more space, listen to what the follow is doing, try to play with the lead they are creating and bounce your ideas and movements to the music off of each other.

Like I said, I'm not sure if that's the correct response, but it's my response When I lead something, it's an invitation for my partner to follow. It's a free country, they don't have to accept the invitation if they feel that there's something different or better that we could be doing.

As for not dancing with them again.... quite the reverse. I seek out these playful follows. But then again I have always loved people with a creative flare and the guts to show it off

[Steven666]

Sabotage the sabotage with a sabotage.