Scottish Championships ????????

[Heather]

There has been lots of references to this subject over the past few months in various threads, and when I went to write something I couldn't find the last reference. Hence this new thread!!!!
Well, is it on or off ? There has been lots of positive feedback and people seem keen, so whassup??????
We were told first of all that something would be announced after the Champs in London, nothing was!! Then it was to be announced after the Viktor and Lydia, again nothing was.
I am not getting at Scot and Franck, as I do realise that something like this takes loads of organisation and hitches are bound to occur, but a regular update on progress (if any)would be helpful!!. There are lots of people dead keen, and it would be a pity to dampen enthusiasm, I don't think people are expecting the Fantastic Extravaganza on the scale of the London event, but it would be nice to have something!!!
The sooner we are informed the sooner we can all get practising !!!!! Wating in anticipation!!!!


P.S My alter ego Miss Bossy says " Just get on with it or else !!!!!!"

[Scot]

Well MS Bossy far be it for me not to give you a response

The Scottish Champs are booked for 20th of October.

As you may know we are doing this as a Charity event for the Red Cross who I met on Friday to arrange all the peripheral stuff required for this type of event eg Equipment, Food, Cloakroom staff, Bar, Door staff, Advertising, Prizes etc etc.

Until all this was confirmed I could not get the promotional material out. However it should be out shortly.

Kind Regards

Scot

[John S]

Excellent, Scot - and now we know that if there are any accidents on the day (see the thread about this) we'll get expert attention!

[Lydia]

HELLOOOO..HOW IS EVERYBODY?

I think Scottish Champs are a brilliant idea!!
Is there going to be BIG advertising about it (could have a big picture of Scot in his kilt! ) and will Ceroc London contribute to the avertising at their own London venues?

Viktor & I might even pop up for the fun..not competing though..just for the support and some good dancing .

Love xxx

[Bill]

I assume that the Scottish Champs are on a Sunday because of lack of venues

I've already spoken to a couple of folk form England who might not make it because it's being held on a Sunday. Was it not possible to get a venue for the Saturday night ??

I'll be teaching in Aberdeen at 8.30 on the Monday morning so it's unlikely that I'll make it either even just to watch everyone. Not so bad for those folk living in and around Edinburgh but I would have thought that potential participants from further afield might have problems getting here for a Sunday event.

But maybe it's just me

Hope it all goes well anyway.........especially if it's for charity

[Franck]

Originally posted by Lydia
Viktor & I might even pop up for the fun..not competing though..just for the support and some good dancing .

Great news, Lydia, I hope you can both make it... Indeed, judging by the response so far from the few people I spoke to (from down South ) the Scottish Champs will be very popular.

Bill, I take you point about having to work on the Monday, but unfortunately, as you noted, few suitable venues are available on a Saturday

It is even possible for anyone from London to fly back on the Monday morning and still be on time for work and for about £50... Not bad for a great week-end in Scotland.
Take a look at the British Midland website

OUT: Saturday 19th October 2002 _London - Heathrow >_Edinburgh
_ web fare normal fare __departs __arrives

BD050: £_11.50 GBP £_14.00 GBP 06:35 07:50
BD052: £_42.50 GBP £_45.00 GBP 08:35 09:50
BD054: £_32.50 GBP £_35.00 GBP 10:40 12:00
BD056: £_32.50 GBP £_35.00 GBP 12:50 14:10
BD058: £_11.50 GBP £_14.00 GBP 14:25 15:45
BD060: £_11.50 GBP £_14.00 GBP 16:45 18:00
BD064: £_11.50 GBP £_14.00 GBP 20:45 22:00

RETURN: Monday 21st October 2002 _Edinburgh >_London - Heathrow
_ web fare normal fare __departs __arrives

BD051: £_32.50 GBP £_35.00 GBP 06:30 08:05
BD053: £_32.50 GBP £_35.00 GBP 08:30 10:00
BD055: £_32.50 GBP £_35.00 GBP 10:35 12:05
BD067: £_32.50 GBP £_35.00 GBP 11:30 12:50
BD057: £_32.50 GBP £_35.00 GBP 12:45 14:10
BD059: £_11.50 GBP £_14.00 GBP 14:55 16:15
BD061: £_32.50 GBP £_35.00 GBP 16:35 18:00
BD063: £_32.50 GBP £_35.00 GBP 18:40 20:00
BD065: £_11.50 GBP £_14.00 GBP 20:50 22:05

[Gus]

As Bill says, the flesh may be willing but some of us Southerners may have problems in getting back to work on the Monday.

The main contingents North of London will be based round Manchester and Birmingham. Can you suggest the best flight operators in and out? It would be a great pity to miss the event.

[Franck]

Originally posted by Gus
As Bill says, the flesh may be willing but some of us Southerners may have problems in getting back to work on the Monday.

The main contingents North of London will be based round Manchester and Birmingham. Can you suggest the best flight operators in and out? It would be a great pity to miss the event.

Well the mind and flesh can survive an early start on the Monday... There are loads of flights early morning on the Monday.

Here are a few from British Midland again (from east Midland airport:

OUT: Saturday 19th October 2002 _East Midlands >_Edinburgh
_ web fare normal fare __departs __arrives

BD213: £_18.50 GBP £_21.00 GBP 07:05 08:05

RETURN: Monday 21st October 2002 _Edinburgh >_East Midlands
_ web fare normal fare __departs __arrives

BD214: £_18.50 GBP £_21.00 GBP 08:15 09:15
BD216: £_4.50 GBP £_7.00 GBP 10:20 11:20

Very cheap! and you could be in the office by 9.30!

More from Manchester:

OUT: Saturday 19th October 2002 _Manchester >_Edinburgh
_ web fare normal fare __departs __arrives
BD381: £_12.50 GBP £_15.00 GBP 10:30 11:25

RETURN: Monday 21st October 2002 _Edinburgh >_Manchester
_ web fare normal fare __departs __arrives
BD380: £_107.50 GBP £_110.00 GBP 06:45 07:45
BD382: £_12.50 GBP £_15.00 GBP 09:40 10:35

And more yet (from easyjet.com): Luton to Edinburgh:

OUTBOUND
Saturday 19 October, flight 31
departs London Luton at 09:20, arrives Edinburgh at 10:35
web fare 30.40 GBP (phone fare 32.90 GBP)
Saturday 19 October, flight 35
departs London Luton at 12:20, arrives Edinburgh at 13:40
web fare 30.40 GBP (phone fare 32.90 GBP)
Saturday 19 October, flight 37
departs London Luton at 20:00, arrives Edinburgh at 21:15
web fare 25.40 GBP (phone fare 27.90 GBP)

RETURN
Monday 21 October, flight 12
departs Edinburgh at 06:20, arrives London Luton at 07:40
web fare 10.90 GBP (phone fare 13.40 GBP)
Monday 21 October, flight 14
departs Edinburgh at 07:55, arrives London Luton at 09:15
web fare 10.90 GBP (phone fare 13.40 GBP)
Monday 21 October, flight 16
departs Edinburgh at 09:40, arrives London Luton at 11:00
web fare 10.90 GBP (phone fare 13.40 GBP)
Monday 21 October, flight 18
departs Edinburgh at 13:05, arrives London Luton at 14:20
web fare 20.90 GBP (phone fare 23.40 GBP)

Franck.

[Tiggerbabe]

Well Bill, that's what happens when you have a job that allows you nearly 2 months off in the summer - you loose the right to have the odd Monday off when you feel like it.

Seriously I hope you do decide to come, we would all miss you. Surely there must be an early morning train to Aberdeen?
Can't you help Franck, you seem to be the man with the timetables

[Bill]

Thanks for the sympathy re my holidays Sheena:p

Ok....Ok so I get 6 weeks at summer but hey, it's just soooooooooooooostressful being in education and while Franck might have all day to play about some of us have no choice but to be at work at 8.30 am ! and we're meant to be on time Franck !!!!!


What would have made the Champs even better...maybe an idea for the future is the Blackpool style where it's a whole weekend rather than just one afternoon/evening. More arranging I know but it can make it a weekend event and a chance to meet everyone and dance in and out of competition.

Ah well, I'm sure it'll go well and as it's 14 weeks on Sunday the literature and all the info should be out soon........won't they Scot/Franck ????

[John S]

Originally posted by Gus


The main contingents North of London will be based round Manchester and Birmingham. Can you suggest the best flight operators in and out? It would be a great pity to miss the event.

You could also try British European on www.flybe.com - they fly between Birmingham and Edinburgh/Glasgow for very good rates - I flew from Edinburgh to Birmingham last week for £39. (They also fly from London City in a joint arrangement with Scot Airways, for any readers in that area.)

There's also GO from Stansted, and even good old BA are doing cheap flights now if you book early enough.

And Manchester's less than 4 hours away by car, so it's definitely do-able.

And as for Bill worried that he can't get to Aberdeen for 8.30 in the morning - well, why not stay north of the Forth after the event and get up early in the morning - Aberdeen's only 2 hours away, for goodness sake!

[filthycute]

Originally posted by bill foreman
What would have made the Champs even better...maybe an idea for the future is the Blackpool style where it's a whole weekend rather than just one afternoon/evening. More arranging I know but it can make it a weekend event and a chance to meet everyone and dance in and out of competition.

I completely agree with you Bill. Although i didn't compete in London i did feel a bit sorry for you lot.....especially with all the changes for different categories Because the competition never finished till so late it didn't really give the competitors much time to relax and enjoy the day/evening. I went to a line dance comp...just spectating.....and they spaced it out over the weekend. Most of the competitions were during the day..freeing up the evenings for a good old boogie
Maybe if we pester them enough we can get them round to our way of thinking

filthycute x x

[Bill]

Gee thanks for that idea John !!!!!!!!!!!!:p

I'm afraid I'm a man who needs his sleep ! Getting to bed well after 1.00 and having to get up before 6.00 doesn't appeal

I look bad enough after a good night's sleep as it is......I don't want to scare off all my students

Anyway, I assume you'll be going to the Champs............got your outfit yet???

Well that's me off on hols for 2 weeks so have fun and I can look forward to a week in the sun followed by another Viktor and Lydia workshop and a great night in Stockport..............can't wait.

[John S]

Originally posted by bill foreman

Well that's me off on hols for 2 weeks so have fun and I can look forward to a week in the sun followed by another Viktor and Lydia workshop and a great night in Stockport..............can't wait.

Enjoy your hols, Bill - you'll be missed at the Champs - are you sure you don't feel the very early symptoms of a Monday morning severe cold??? (hopefully your manager isn't reading this!)

[Gus]

So ... enough of this converstaion re travel requirements...

lets get into the real debate ... the rules!

What are your views on the following;

1. Should teachers be allowed to compete (fancy taking on Scott or Viktor?)

2. Should blatent choreography in freestyle lead to disqualification ? :reallymad

3. Should double trouble be totaly freestyle or choreographed (Bill, what do you think? Watched the vid of Blackpool ... very slinky!)

4. How do you categorise who is eligible for the Intermediate category?

5. Should mini-airsteps and/or drops be scoring moves?

6. Should dancers with the surname Foreman and the first name Bill be forced to compete wearing only a tutu?

Comments?

[DavidB]

I understand and agree with the idea of keeping rules to a minimum. But some rules are inevitable. It would help to know what categories are planned...

1. Should teachers be allowed to compete?
I hope so. You want to attract the best dancers, and some of those are teachers. But I can understand that it could put people off entering. You can either allow them to only enter certain categories, or have a separate teachers only category. I prefer the first option - too many categories makes a long day even longer, and I honestly don't think there is any difference in standard between most teachers and other good dancers.

- 'Showcase' should be completely open - it is usually the category that teachers enter. But how about an additional prize for the best placed non-teachers.
- 'Dance with a stranger' should be open, but there should be some way of stopping two teachers dancing together.
- 'Freestyle' beginners and intermediate should obviously not allow teachers. The advanced should.

If the organisers decide not to allow teachers to enter the normal divisions, then there should be extra divisions for teachers only. Edinburgh is a long way to go just to watch.

(And what is a teacher? Is it someone who teaches every week? Once a month? Anytime this year? Or anyone who has ever taught a class in their life.)

2. Should blatent choreography in freestyle lead to disqualification?
A whole choreographed routine shouldn't be a disqualification - you should just get marked last (after all - you haven't done anything that can be judged.) But some choreographed elements should be ok (I'm thinking of some of the Lindy-style kicks.)

3. Should double trouble be totaly freestyle or choreographed
It should be freestyle, but I think you need to give the competitors a bit more leeway than you would with normal couples.

4. How do you categorise who is eligible for the Intermediate category?
Someone who has been to more than 10 lessons?

5. Should mini-airsteps and/or drops be scoring moves?
If you dance into and out of a drop without interrupting your normal dance timing, they should be seen as just another step. Personally if I saw someone doing more than a couple of drops, I'd lose interest and mark them down. If they were dangerous, I'd disqualify them.
Airsteps should only be allowed in an aerials competition.
(If you have any rules saying what an aerial or a drop is, there should be a judge available at the competitors meeting to tell couples what is ok.)

6. Should dancers with the surname Foreman and the first name Bill be forced to compete wearing only a tutu?
Only if dancers called Gus from Altrincham turn up dressed as a Morris Dancer.

Can someone recommend any hotels near the hall where people could stay?
And is there anything to do on the Saturday night?

David

[Gus]

(And what is a teacher? Is it someone who teaches every week? Once a month? Anytime this year? Or anyone who has ever taught a class in their life.)

Good point ... at least one of the competitors at the Ceroc champs (which is supposed to be closed to teachers) has previously taught a workshop ..... does that make him a teacher?

I have another friend who runs a simple beginners class at his freestyle events that considered that in itself made him ineligible to compete. There does need to be a clear definition.

I honestly don't think there is any difference in standard between most teachers and other good dancers.

Totaly agree. I think Viktor and Lydia are the exception. Other than them there are some non-teachers who are well ahead of most teachers I know, e.g. the current Open Jive Champs Clayton and Janine.

[John S]

Leaving aside the niceties of eligibility and rules, there still seems to be only a low level of awareness of the event among regular Ceroc dancers in Scotland - hopefully there will be a blaze of publicity once the holiday season is over, as some folk like/need to plan ahead.

Also, a lot of people I have spoken to assume that because the event is titled "Championships", it won't really be of much concern to the average "intermediate" dancer, so they don't bother putting in their diaries anyway. Now I know that if it's anything like London or Blackpool there will be lots of opportunities to dance anyway, or maybe to get very lucky in the Lucky Dip and be paired with a superb dancer, but that message will have to be got across somehow in the publicity and in the way the Ceroc teachers present it at the weekly classes.

Anyway, good luck to Franck, Scot & co - it isn't easy to organise something like this for the first time and it's easy to stand in the wings and make these comments while someone else is doing the work, so even if none of my suggestions is acted on at least the date's in my diary!

[SwingSwingSwing]

1. Should teachers be allowed to compete?
Most definitely. I don't see why teachers should be restricted to Showcase. If they want to compete in Freestyle, let them bring it on. I'm sure the audience want to see the best dancers around and if those dancers just happen to be teachers then they should be allowed to compete. Agreeing with DavidB here, they should be not allowed to enter Intermediate which then opens up the "what is a teacher" can of worms.

2. Should blatent choreography in freestyle lead to disqualification ?
What is Choreography? How do you define it within a Modern Jive competition setting? If anyone does a fully choreographed routine in a Freestlye event, good luck to them! It would be hard to pull the wool over the judges eyes, I reckon. I wouldn't disqualify them, just mark them down.

On the choreographed elements idea, if they are "breakaway" elements done with no contact with a partner then I'm not sure they should be allowed in a Modern Jive contest. In a Lindy contest I'd probably allow the "standard" choreographed stuff but I don't think breakaway elements have a place in Modern Jive. Again, mark them down.

3. Should double trouble be totaly freestyle or choreographed?
Freestyle. I was at Blackpool (not this year but last) and lot of the double trouble looked choreographed. Put me right off.

4. How do you categorise who is eligible for the Intermediate category?
This is an interesting one. The problem here is not beginners entering Intermediate. If they are indeed beginners then the judging system will recognise that. The problem here is the intermediate/advanced divide. When I was at Blackpool, I distinctly remember seeing Donna van Roose (see Dance Style Progession thread ) and her partner warming up I thought that they were advanced dancers. Imagine my surprise when they appear in the same heat of Intermediate Freestyle as my partner and I. Looking back at the video I still think the same, they were advanced dancers. (And it's not just sour grapes 'cos they got second and we didn't even get past the first round! ). Unfortunately, I don't think there is any solution for this one, except having one big category for everybody.

5. Should mini-airsteps and/or drops be scoring moves?
Drops - No. There are already far to many drops done in competition Freestyle events.
Mini aerials - depends on the focus of the cateogry. If the category is judging social dance skills then mini-airsteps shouldn't even be allowed, let alone given extra marks.

6. Should dancers with the surname Foreman and the first name Bill be forced to compete wearing only a tutu?
Most definitely. But I would add compulsory red high heels, no tights and ban him from shaving his legs two months prior to contest.


SwingSwingSwing

[DavidB]

Eligibility for Categories

You have categories to group dancers of a similar standard together. Then no-one feels out of place, and everyone has a chance of winning. This is how other dance competitions sort out what category you are at (or at least used to when I competed).

In Ballroom competitions, you have several different categories - Beginners, Novice, Intermediate, Pre-Championship, Amateur and Professional. For the lower categories , if you win a competition at a particular category, and there are more than 3 couples entered, and it is not a heat for a larger competition, you cannot compete at a lower category. (i.e. if you win a Pre-champ competition, you can't enter again as an Intermediate.) This does make you move up, as it is normal to dance at two categories on the same day. If you teach you are a professional - no question about it. I think Amateurs are allowed to give demos, and maybe help out in classes, without losing their status.

In West Coast Swing competitions, the Showcase and Classic (ie showcase without lifts) are open to anyone. Strictly Swing (freestyle) is also open to anyone, but it is an unwritten rule that the top couples will not compete as a couple - they will find a different partner. Jack and Jill (Dance with a stranger) is the big competition for most dancers. They have a points system based on previous results, and the category you compete at is based on these points. They usually have Novice, Intermediate and Advanced. They also have a Championship or Invitational category which is for anyone who has won a top competition. (This is usually one of the highlights of the competition.)

Obviously you wouldn't want to do anything as complicated as this. Both Ballroom and WCS have competitions every week, with uniform rules, qualified judges, and enough competitors to make it worth-while. With only 2 national competitions, and 4 in total, modern jive is not very competitive by nature, and this would be overkill. But you can take the basic idea - if you have done well at one category, you should move up and give someone else a chance. I would say that anyone who has finished in the top 3 in any competition should have to move up to the next category.

Alternatively you could consider having a separate category for teachers and past winners. It would encourage 'advanced' dancers to enter the advanced category, and not the intermediate.

I still like the idea of only one category for Dance With A Stranger. Although, as I have said before, I think you should change partners to really make it Dance With A Stranger.

David