Ceroc Scotland Forum

MartinHarper wrote:How come?

I've changed my mind – I forgot about the "fun" part.

However, generally, if you want to do well in a competition, deciding "no dips or drops" is likely to limit your chances. (I do have a counter example though!)

Done three lucky dips, never got past the first round
Some of my partners deserved (a lot) better, but none asked for their money back.

ducasi wrote:However, generally, if you want to do well in a competition, deciding "no dips or drops" is likely to limit your chances.

Why? Dips and drops are often used to run contrary to musical interpretation than with it ...... [lights blue touchpaper etc. ]

Gus wrote:Why? Dips and drops are often used to run contrary to musical interpretation than with it ...... [lights blue touchpaper etc. ]

That's a valid point because its at the expense of musciality, but what happens occasionally in the Advanced level over here is that sometimes you come across a gem of man who can successfully put the two together. Not that he's the one being judged at the time of this capability.

And if the ladies body mass is bigger than her partner, and her strength lies in simply only being able to wiggle and roll her body in time to the music, rather than resorting to drops/dips or any lifts, then what do they do? Assume that they ensure they would only play to their strengths to win the comp, which I'm sure has occured somewhere at sometime.

So since its comp time over there maybe this could be a very good tactic for some ladies out there to use. Forget about "following", don't think about what your partner may be capable of doing, use your body size to its fullest advantage, have fun and just tell the guy what "you" want to do, to make sure "you" look the best on the floor, and make sure you win

Actually re reading thr some of these posts I think I may need to clarify that DWAS over here is split into sections according to level. So you will only get dancers of supposedly similar level to dance with. The part I'm interested in is hearing peoples thoughts on tactics some people out there use to win these sorts of division in comps, "fair" or "unfair" within the rules of course .

ducasi wrote:However, generally, if you want to do well in a competition, deciding "no dips or drops" is likely to limit your chances.

Interesting comment. On balance I would say that it is true for fixed partner divisions (Intermediate etc).

There are two different criteria to consider if you do any 'trick' moves:
- they have to be as good as your regular dancing
- they have to fit the music.

Generally competitors practice a lot of dips & drops, and become proficient at them. Quite a few people are probably better at the drops than the rest of their dancing. The placement of drops - especially for hitting breaks - has improved significantly over the last few years. So for many people adding a few dips & drops at the right point will enhance their performance.

However when you get to the final stages, it tends to be the dancing that differentiates people. Everyone at that point can execute a drop well, and to the music. There is a far bigger difference in partnering skills, connection, musicality, individual technique etc.

(I would apply similar criteria for aerials. However the difference is that few people can enhance their performance by doing aerials).

For DWAS it is a bit different. The drops are less likely to be seen as there are far more people on the floor. At Blackpool you get about 5 seconds to catch my eye if you are lucky. The drops I do see are not executed as well as the fixed-partner divisions. (They aren't usually unsafe, just not cleanly executed.) More importantly they rarely fit the music.

You are better off putting the effort into looking like you are enjoying it - that will make you stand out from the crowd.


Judging individuals in DWAS is something I've only done a couple of times. For me a significant part of judging the individual is how they work with their partner. It is a partner dance after all. So someone who takes over the dance is less likely to be marked highly. On the other hand, a couple who work together to show their strengths will both get good individual marks. We can usually spot the difference.

kiwichook wrote:... The part I'm interested in is hearing peoples thoughts on tactics some people out there use to win these sorts of division in comps, "fair" or "unfair" within the rules of course .

Like having a mate with a clipboard tapping the significant opposition on the shoulders?





O.K. Show me the rule against it.

It sounds like the Aussie DWAS comps run a little differently than in the UK. Generally you meet your partner for the first time on the stage, a few seconds before the music starts. Even so, I usually try to ask the girl if there's anything she particularly wants or doesn't want me to lead. I guess that would help us both (guys/girls are also judged individually, at least at first) to compete better, but mainly I ask so that the girl can have a better time. Usually the answer is "meh, lead whatever" anyway.

robd wrote: I do know there are people who will not enter DWAS comps in case they get a really good partner and disappoint them and I think this is a real shame.

Looking at the list of past Ceroc DWAS winners, would you want to be the one who drew Yuko and didn't get placed?

Gary wrote:It sounds like the Aussie DWAS comps run a little differently than in the UK. Generally you meet your partner for the first time on the stage, a few seconds before the music starts. Even so, I usually try to ask the girl if there's anything she particularly wants or doesn't want me to lead. I guess that would help us both (guys/girls are also judged individually, at least at first) to compete better, but mainly I ask so that the girl can have a better time. Usually the answer is "meh, lead whatever" anyway.

that would be because you are a delight to dance with Gary

kiwichook wrote:Probably a ridiculous thread to start but very curious to hear what people think about the girls telling the guys competing in that section beforehand on the day or even as they get to them on the floor, not to put them into certain moves. Could be for any any number of reasons why, for example because they can't do the more difficult moves like a big drop or they don't like certain moves. All done of course to improve their chances of winning an Advanced section placing. At that level, is it either pathetic or is it very clever to work in this cunning and calcuated way? Or is it just plain good dancing tactics ensuring one plays to their strengths? Thoughts?

Depends on the format...

Do you stay with the same partner throughout and get a few minutes to chat before hand.

Do you switch partners every 40 seconds.

DTS and I have entered Blackpool DWAS. We are doing it to dip our toes in the water if you like as competing is at the back of our minds maybe for next year.

I do not expect to win but do expect to have fun and find a partner that can dance and have fun. I would absolutely hate it if the partner i ended up with was all serious and telling me what to do/what he was going to do etc etc.

Trouble wrote:DTS and I have entered Blackpool DWAS. We are doing it to dip our toes in the water if you like as competing is at the back of our minds maybe for next year.

Is the Toe Dip an official Ceroc move? And why will there be water on the dance floor? And can I pre-book you for a dance at Blackpool?

Martin wrote:Depends on the format...

Do you stay with the same partner throughout and get a few minutes to chat before hand.

Do you switch partners every 40 seconds.

In our case it would be switch partners every 40 seconds.
So, once on the floor, you quickly tell the guys what you won't do and then when the brave guy tries to do a move you don't want because he thinks to himself what a ridiculous thing to say at an Advanced level, you then resort to blocking him with your "body" so you can then successfully lead them into another move to make yourself look good! By then, you should have successfully worked your way round making sure you leave all the male participants on the floor looking like stunned mullets. And to finish off, it then becomes an "Andy and Lou fist waving" moment when you get awarded first prize for your sterling efforts

ducasi wrote:While drops are probably not essential to winning a DWAS competition, I'd suggest that if you really don't want to do them in such a competition, you'd be better not entering at all.
.

I think dips and drops add to the showmanship aspect of a competition and If executed well and are dictated by the music can really increase a couples chance of going through. For this reason, I have decided not to do the DWAS at Blackpool because I would not feel comfortable doing drops with a stranger now Im pregnant and would feel this would hinder their chances. DWAS comps are for fun, but not everyone sees it that way and the last hing I would want is to get a pro who 'is in it to win it' only to royally **** him off with a no-drops rule!

xxx

kiwichook wrote:You quickly tell the guys what you won't do and then when the brave guy tries to do a move you don't want because he thinks to himself what a ridiculous thing to say at an Advanced level...

Let me see if I understand this right:

Follower says "no drops, please".
Leader leads a drop anyway.

That sounds... dangerous.

MartinHarper wrote:Let me see if I understand this right:

Follower says "no drops, please".
Leader leads a drop anyway.

That sounds... dangerous.

what...?? But the drop doesn't happen! As I said, follower blocks, so there is no danger then, is there. And anyway, surely, no one sets out to be dangerous in front of a crowd, or a judge do they?? One way to make oneself look really bad???. So wot's your point??

kiwichook wrote:In our case it would be switch partners every 40 seconds.
So, once on the floor, you quickly tell the guys what you won't do and then when the brave guy tries to do a move you don't want because he thinks to himself what a ridiculous thing to say at an Advanced level, you then resort to blocking him with your "body" so you can then successfully lead them into another move to make yourself look good! By then, you should have successfully worked your way round making sure you leave all the male participants on the floor looking like stunned mullets. And to finish off, it then becomes an "Andy and Lou fist waving" moment when you get awarded first prize for your sterling efforts

If you are talking Advanced Aussie, I would say, when you change partners smile lots, do a couple of spins or a sexy body roll or sexy (in time to the music) walk to your next partner, connect with him on the beat... keep your mouth shut and enjoy.

You know, the judges are judging you alone, and how you change partners is also noticed...

There are normally 5 judges judging the girls and 5 judges judging the boys.

Talking is also noticed (by the judges) and it puts the guy off.

All advanced Aussie guys I know can do dips safely. Go with the flow unless you have a serious injury.


However if it is a New Zealand comp - Good luck


(BTW - thanks for our lovely dance at the Hunter Valley :love

kiwichook wrote:What's your point?

Basic dance etiquette is that no means no. The "brave" leader in your example should go back and work on his basics.

kiwichook wrote:what...?? But the drop doesn't happen! As I said, follower blocks, so there is no danger then, is there.

That's like driving 2ft behind a car on a motorway, on the theory that they won't slam on their breaks, so there's no danger.

Leaders relying on followers to sabotage their moves sounds, well, an interesting approach. In social dancing, it'd be just plain rude. In competition dancing, I dunno, but I'm inclined to say it's just a bit weird...

kiwichook wrote:And anyway, surely, no one sets out to be dangerous in front of a crowd, or a judge do they?? One way to make oneself look really bad???. So wot's your point??

Very few drivers "set out" to have an accident either, to continue my vehicle analogy. But it still happens.