Ceroc Scotland Forum

Calling all rotators out there! The place for you to dance safely and amongst your friends as fellow rotators is in the provincial cities of New Zealand. We take great pride in the fact we teach people to dance like this. Speed is also very important cos the the faster you can dance the moves in this fashion the better we think and know we are. Because this art has been mastered this is why we are producing some really great teachers. As we say over here, "well, they are world famous in whykickamoocow". They deserve all the respect they get and should be given.

We don't understand why anyone would think that our dancing looks messy rather we think it looks really awesome as we are moving all the time and we get to chase each other all over the floor! Our girls can cope with the constant circling and spinning without throwing up - they have cast iron guts. After all, we are descended from good farming stock!

To rotate is so much fun and is clearly the only correct and proper way to dance. Anyone who dances on a line or in some funny slotted fashion at any one point clearly doesn't understand what they are doing and can't or is not, dancing Ceroc properly and must be doing this thing we have heard people talk about called errr what is it ?? ummm "modern jive" I think??

We 're not sure what modern jive is over here ?? After all, that is not Ceroc, we are not "line dancers" and these funny foreign people that visit us and tell us they are "modern jivers" - well, sorry but they just need lots of help and have so much to still learn cos they ain't doing Ceroc as far as we are concerned.

<Quote>
but 6 ceroc beats = 12 musical beats (Ceroc counts half beat), therefore if you started a 6 ceroc beats move at the beginning of bar 1 you would finish it at the end of bar 3. So you are hitting the end of a bar, technically speaking (well if I've understood properly what I have been taught on the subject by more musically knowledgeable people).
However I agree you may rather want to hit the end of bar 4 (i.e. spread the move over 2 'mini-phrases' if we call a mini-phrase a set of 2 bars that we -dancers - typically count from 1 to 8), and therefore add a 2 ceroc beat move.
</quote>

Ok people seem to be getting confused about beats and how they are structured.

If there are 3 beats in a bar then its triple (3) time
If there are 4 beats in a bar then it is quadruple (4) time

These beats can be broken down into 2 parts (simple time) i.e. counted 1& 2& 3& 4&
They can also be broken down in to 3 parts (compound time) i.e. counted 1&a 2&a 3&a 4&a

Modern Jive counts simple quadruple time (but usually starts counting on the up beat i.e. &1 &2 &3 &4)
WCS counts compound quadruple time (but usually starts counting on the up beat &a1 &a2 &a3 &a4)

Alan Doyle wrote:Ok people seem to be getting confused about beats and how they are structured.

One of the most confusing things is the 5&6&7&8& - mostly because the 8 is on the 7 of the minor phrase in 4/4 time music.

There are some people who say "it's5&6&7&8" the "it's" is on the 1 so that the 8 is actually on the 8. The problem is that this puts people who are used to the 5&6&7&8& count onto the 2 of the next phrase - which is even worse than the whole saying 8 on the 7 controversy

Andy McGregor wrote:One of the most confusing things is the 5&6&7&8& - mostly because the 8 is on the 7 of the minor phrase in 4/4 time music.

There are some people who say "it's5&6&7&8" the "it's" is on the 1 so that the 8 is actually on the 8. The problem is that this puts people who are used to the 5&6&7&8& count onto the 2 of the next phrase - which is even worse than the whole saying 8 on the 7 controversy

how do I do quotes?

If you're counting 1& 2& 3& 4& 5& 6& 7& 8&

the "it's" in the above example is the & part of the 4th beat (or the upbeat).

Andy McGregor wrote: There are some people who say "it's5&6&7&8" the "it's" is on the 1 so that the 8 is actually on the 8. The problem is that this puts people who are used to the 5&6&7&8& count onto the 2 of the next phrase - which is even worse than the whole saying 8 on the 7 controversy

I've had one teacher who did this regularly, and it messed with my head chronically. I was always "out of time" with the rest of the class beginning routines (except it didn't seem quite so funny at the time).

Alan Doyle wrote:how do I do quotes?

You're almost there. Use[] rather than <> and you'll be fine

Kiwichook wrote:Calling all rotators out there! The place for you to dance safely and amongst your friends as fellow rotators is in the provincial cities of New Zealand. We take great pride in the fact we teach people to dance like this. Speed is also very important cos the the faster you can dance the moves in this fashion the better we think and know we are. Because this art has been mastered this is why we are producing some really great teachers. As we say over here, "well, they are world famous in whykickamoocow". They deserve all the respect they get and should be given.

You know, there are more civilized areas of the country than the Waikato..... you could always try moving there. More than one farmer has made the push north! I'm not to sure how well the Whaikikamukow joke goes down with foreigners who don't understand Maori either

kiwichook wrote:Calling all rotators out there! The place for you to dance safely and amongst your friends as fellow rotators is in the provincial cities of New Zealand. We take great pride in the fact we teach people to dance like this. Speed is also very important cos the the faster you can dance the moves in this fashion the better we think and know we are. Because this art has been mastered this is why we are producing some really great teachers. As we say over here, "well, they are world famous in whykickamoocow". They deserve all the respect they get and should be given.

We don't understand why anyone would think that our dancing looks messy rather we think it looks really awesome as we are moving all the time and we get to chase each other all over the floor! Our girls can cope with the constant circling and spinning without throwing up - they have cast iron guts. After all, we are descended from good farming stock!

To rotate is so much fun and is clearly the only correct and proper way to dance. Anyone who dances on a line or in some funny slotted fashion at any one point clearly doesn't understand what they are doing and can't or is not, dancing Ceroc properly and must be doing this thing we have heard people talk about called errr what is it ?? ummm "modern jive" I think??

We 're not sure what modern jive is over here ?? After all, that is not Ceroc, we are not "line dancers" and these funny foreign people that visit us and tell us they are "modern jivers" - well, sorry but they just need lots of help and have so much to still learn cos they ain't doing Ceroc as far as we are concerned.

This post looks like a satire, except that I recently danced with several NZ followers.

Some of them had great tension and could follow some complicated moves, but they were unable to properly follow basic moves. That is, if I led her to change places, she would move somewhere else, usually about 60 degrees clockwise.

For a simple change of place ("Man breakthrough", "Underarm walkthrough", "Travelling return"), the follower was likely to finish up to 60 degrees away from where I expected her. I don't believe my lead is perfect, but when the error is that large I suspect the follower is contributing to the problem.

Add that to the gossip I heard (suggest they dance in a slot and they object to "line dancing")...

timbp wrote:This post looks like a satire, except that I recently danced with several NZ followers.

Some of them had great tension and could follow some complicated moves, but they were unable to properly follow basic moves. That is, if I led her to change places, she would move somewhere else, usually about 60 degrees clockwise.

For a simple change of place ("Man breakthrough", "Underarm walkthrough", "Travelling return"), the follower was likely to finish up to 60 degrees away from where I expected her. I don't believe my lead is perfect, but when the error is that large I suspect the follower is contributing to the problem.

Add that to the gossip I heard (suggest they dance in a slot and they object to "line dancing")...

Interesting thread this is, Some good stuff posted and quite alot of not so good stuff posted imho, In simple terms there are 2 types of physical body lead, Rotational and linear, I have seen too many MJ moves taught when the teacher has asked the leader has led a move that starts with a linear lead and then he is telling the follower her response should be rotational!!! hence the confusion......the question of whether you dance rotation or Slotted is purely a personal preference, but there is a very big difference is how you lead both, They are polar opposites.....Ladies should not be taught where to go or which foot to stand on first, Men should be taught how to lead properly and told what they are leading then the women should be taught what should be happening as the perfect follower`s response
But as a teacher it takes a greater understanding of the physics of dance work before teaching correctly what both partners should be doing.

Personally i teach and dance slotted because i prefer the styling of WCS and i also think slotted is a far safer bet on a crowded dancefloor.

FoxyFunkster wrote:Interesting thread this is, Some good stuff posted and quite alot of not so good stuff posted imho, In simple terms there are 2 types of physical body lead, Rotational and linear, I have seen too many MJ moves taught when the teacher has asked the leader has led a move that starts with a linear lead and then he is telling the follower her response should be rotational!!! hence the confusion......the question of whether you dance rotation or Slotted is purely a personal preference, but there is a very big difference is how you lead both, They are polar opposites.....Ladies should not be taught where to go or which foot to stand on first, Men should be taught how to lead properly and told what they are leading then the women should be taught what should be happening as the perfect follower`s response
But as a teacher it takes a greater understanding of the physics of dance work before teaching correctly what both partners should be doing.

Personally i teach and dance slotted because i prefer the styling of WCS and i also think slotted is a far safer bet on a crowded dancefloor.

I don't believe the slot is important in itself.

As a leader, I use it more as a reference (mainly in classes). If the result of a move should be a change of place, then I expect to have swapped places during the move. If the move seems to have worked, but we have not exactly changed places, then I have done something wrong and I need to think about and practise the move more.
Then in freestyle I can modify the lead to make my follower go through the move and step into the free space I have found.
If she rotates 60 degrees without my lead I can adjust, but I prefer dancing with women who follow, rather than those who (follow + 60 degrees).

In freestyle, I lead my partner to step into free space. That's hard to do if she's not stepping where I led.
I can modify the lead to make my follower go through the move and step into the free space I have found.
If she rotates 60 degrees I can adjust, but I prefer dancing with women who follow, rather than those who (follow + 60 degrees).

FoxyFunkster wrote:Personally i teach and dance slotted because i prefer the styling of WCS and i also think slotted is a far safer bet on a crowded dancefloor.

You think slotted is safer? Take a box of matches and empty them onto a tray. Every point they touch is a potential collision.
Take the same number of marbles and empty them onto a tray. Every point they touch is a potential collision.

The "importance" of slotted dancing has nothing to do with the slot it's self - it's to do with the control and floor craft involved in maintaining your position on the floor and controlling your partner's position on the floor.

Personally I prefer the more amorphous form of a cross rather than a slot or circular.

{in the case of a "+60º" follower I just add another 30º rather than fight to take that 60º back again}

Gadget wrote:You think slotted is safer? Take a box of matches and empty them onto a tray. Every point they touch is a potential collision.
Take the same number of marbles and empty them onto a tray. Every point they touch is a potential collision.

The "importance" of slotted dancing has nothing to do with the slot it's self - it's to do with the control and floor craft involved in maintaining your position on the floor and controlling your partner's position on the floor.

Personally I prefer the more amorphous form of a cross rather than a slot or circular.

{in the case of a "+60º" follower I just add another 30º rather than fight to take that 60º back again}

This really doesn`t require formulas, In the states at the WCS events i`ve been to, everyone dances in a short slot, ie just changing places not ravelling very far and as a result there are hardly any clashes even on a packed dance floor, at the MJ events i go to when it is busy it`s like being in piccadilly circus! total chaos ensues!!! The emphasis as written should be on awareness form the leader primarily, But i still feel the slot is a safer starting point for teaching floor craft.

Gadget wrote:You think slotted is safer? Take a box of matches and empty them onto a tray.

If that's what your slotted dancing looks like, "ur doin it rong".

On the other hand:

FoxyFunkster wrote:at the WCS events i`ve been to, everyone dances in a short slot, ie just changing places not ravelling very far and as a result there are hardly any clashes even on a packed dance floor, at the MJ events i go to when it is busy it`s like being in piccadilly circus! total chaos ensues!!!

In my limited experience of WCS events, the most 'packed' WCS floor doesn't come close to how busy a packed MJ floor is. At comparable levels of density, I don't see many collisions amongst MJ dancers either.

And to open a can of worms:

I can't be bothered to find the quotes, but there is certainly a perception, even amongst many WCSers, that the WCS contingent in this country could do a better job of managing their floorcraft. Given the belief that slotted dancing makes for better floorcraft, this is somewhat surprising.

And to scoop those worms out:

My own experience is that for reasonably skilled dancers, attitude probably has more to do with how many collisions you have than anything else. If you are really focussed on making sure you don't bump with people, it is going to happen very rarely (although avoiding accidents moving backwards takes a lot of care and I think we all mess up from time to time). But if you're determined to do a particular move sequence, and think it's up to other people to get out of the way, then collisions are going to happen rather a lot.

David Franklin wrote:If that's what your slotted dancing looks like, "ur doin it rong".

On the other hand:

In my limited experience of WCS events, the most 'packed' WCS floor doesn't come close to how busy a packed MJ floor is. At comparable levels of density, I don't see many collisions amongst MJ dancers either.

And to open a can of worms:

I can't be bothered to find the quotes, but there is certainly a perception, even amongst many WCSers, that the WCS contingent in this country could do a better job of managing their floorcraft. Given the belief that slotted dancing makes for better floorcraft, this is somewhat surprising.

And to scoop those worms out:

My own experience is that for reasonably skilled dancers, attitude probably has more to do with how many collisions you have than anything else. If you are really focussed on making sure you don't bump with people, it is going to happen very rarely (although avoiding accidents moving backwards takes a lot of care and I think we all mess up from time to time). But if you're determined to do a particular move sequence, and think it's up to other people to get out of the way, then collisions are going to happen rather a lot.

Rest assured at Swing Diego or BBTB on a saturday evening when the dance floor has as many dancing as any MJ weekender dance floor i`ve been to there are definately less chaos going on, I`ve seen a packed Ceroc class have no issues when everyone is dancing slotted then as soon as the freestyle starts it`s a totally different ball game, But like i said floor craft generally should be encouraged as much as any moves or patterns when being taught.

After very occasionally suffering some very poor floor manners by non-dancers I think MJ'ers could be better prepared for the real world if the spare ladies/men randomly wandered through the class carrying drinks.

David Franklin wrote:
In my limited experience of WCS events, the most 'packed' WCS floor doesn't come close to how busy a packed MJ floor is. At comparable levels of density, I don't see many collisions amongst MJ dancers either.

MJ is (in my opinion) much easier to dance in a smaller space than WCS is, and because there is no slot it’s easier to move out of the way when someone comes barreling towards you. MJ dancers are used to this kind of chaos, in much the same way as South Koreans don’t seem to have any problems driving (and not dying) on their motorways. Where WCS wins out is in a sort of “floor management” approach, where if everyone is lined up the same way there’s less chance someone will be barreling towards you in the first place.

And to open a can of worms:

I can't be bothered to find the quotes, but there is certainly a perception, even amongst many WCSers, that the WCS contingent in this country could do a better job of managing their floorcraft. Given the belief that slotted dancing makes for better floorcraft, this is somewhat surprising.

I find there are points in WCS patterns that are very hard to abort from in a hurry. Specifically once the follower is past me and essentially moving backwards on her own there isn’t a lot I can do to stop her unless she’s already too tense in the arm to be doing it properly….

I think a lot of WCSers, myself included, are too used to dancing in venues where they have the space to not worry about these things too much. I also think that we’re too comfortable with the slot handling half our floorcraft problems, and we’ve gotten lazy.

My own experience is that for reasonably skilled dancers, attitude probably has more to do with how many collisions you have than anything else. If you are really focussed on making sure you don't bump with people, it is going to happen very rarely (although avoiding accidents moving backwards takes a lot of care and I think we all mess up from time to time). But if you're determined to do a particular move sequence, and think it's up to other people to get out of the way, then collisions are going to happen rather a lot.

First, thanks to NZ Monkey for actually trying to answer my questions.

NZ Monkey wrote:MJ is (in my opinion) much easier to dance in a smaller space than WCS is, and because there is no slot it’s easier to move out of the way when someone comes barreling towards you.

Thing is, there are lots of people who dance MJ slotted. Certainly when I dance MJ there is a definite slot. It's just not so definite that I'd crash into someone rather than truncate it (and if I'm continually truncating it, I might well do a 90 degree shift as Gadget describes). To hear people talk, it seems this is something people don't really do in WCS.

MJ dancers are used to this kind of chaos, in much the same way as South Koreans don’t seem to have any problems driving (and not dying) on their motorways. Where WCS wins out is in a sort of “floor management” approach, where if everyone is lined up the same way there’s less chance someone will be barreling towards you in the first place.

I agree with all of this. However, there was definitely a recent post about a crowded WCS-only event where there were collisions and the poster felt people needed to concentrate more on floorcraft. To be honest, I find that very surprising, and somewhat disappointing.

I find there are points in WCS patterns that are very hard to abort from in a hurry. Specifically once the follower is past me and essentially moving backwards on her own there isn’t a lot I can do to stop her unless she’s already too tense in the arm to be doing it properly….

This is probably a silly question, but why can't you pull your arms in? (Chipmunk arms). Yeah, it looks ugly, but it's better than having her crash into someone. Also (leading to your next point) - if there's not a lot of space, shouldn't you (general) be restricting the travel in your slot?

David Franklin wrote:First, thanks to NZ Monkey for actually trying to answer my questions.

Any time

Thing is, there are lots of people who dance MJ slotted. Certainly when I dance MJ there is a definite slot. It's just not so definite that I'd crash into someone rather than truncate it (and if I'm continually truncating it, I might well do a 90 degree shift as Gadget describes). To hear people talk, it seems this is something people don't really do in WCS.

snip

This is probably a silly question, but why can't you pull your arms in? (Chipmunk arms). Yeah, it looks ugly, but it's better than having her crash into someone. Also (leading to your next point) - if there's not a lot of space, shouldn't you (general) be restricting the travel in your slot?

While a lot of people dance MJ in a slot, the ways it’s lead typically doesn’t require one, and pretty much everyone is used to not dancing in a slot as well. From a floorcraft perspective it’s easier to move a MJ dancer (dancing MJ at least) off the slot to avoid collisions because they’re not as conditioned to travelling down one. This is a double edged sword, as they’re also less likely to head down a slot even when you are leading them in one….

The other, slightly more serious part of my answer, is that the distance between partners is greater in an open position than it typically is in MJ and that the followers are taught to stretch out in the slot against the “post”. Essentially, when the leader has come to end of the patterny parts of most patterns, he sets the couples hands at a fixed point in space and both partners spend the next couple of beats stretching against that point to build connection. That’s the anchor.

In practice, the post is usually set about an arms length ahead of leader, and the follower has a fair bit of room after that to move to the end of the slot. She usually travels further than just the one step back most MJ couples take at the end of their moves. I’d estimate it’s typically about half as far again.

The leader can shorten that post as much as he needs to, but what I find often happens is that the follower doesn’t pick up that something is wrong immediately and continues taking that one-and-a-half steps she’s used to finish the pattern and anchor. This is often about a half a step too far. I’d guess this is because being pulled in tight feels a bit like having the post set, but I’m sure one of the girls will be able to answer that question better.

From the leaders point of view there isn’t much more he can do once the follower is travelling on her unless he can chase her down or somehow, which often isn’t easy to do in a hurry. I’ve found trying to shorten it more by moving backward just has the undesirable effect of pulling her off balance as she’s travelling instead of stopping her.

You could always dance WCS with a shorter distance between the couples all the time, but it looks and feel ridiculous at the kind of tempo’s we usually dance too. And yes - if you're restricted in space you should be restricting your slot more than usual, but as I said before we can get lazy and we're not perfect just like everyone else.

Sadly, it's all too easy for me to lose focus on floorcraft when there are a hundred other things pressing for attention.

NZ Monkey wrote:The leader can shorten that post as much as he needs to, but what I find often happens is that the follower doesn’t pick up that something is wrong immediately and continues taking that one-and-a-half steps she’s used to finish the pattern and anchor. .... I’ve found trying to shorten it more by moving backward just has the undesirable effect of pulling her off balance as she’s travelling instead of stopping her.

Wow. You dance with some really bad followers. If the leader tightens his frame, the follower should match that, not carry on walking backwards on auto-pilot. If the leader pulls the follower's hand away from her, the follower should walk forwards, or stop walking backwards, not lose balance. This is pretty basic stuff. In the end, I'd rather pull a beginner off balance than have her walk into someone.

One thing I find is that if I need to lead my follower forwards in a hurry (or stop her moving back) it's better to do so by rotating rather than travelling. This also avoids issues where, in trying to stop my partner walking backwards into someone, I walk backwards into someone. So, if I am holding my partner's hand in my left hand, I rotate anti-clockwise, which leads my partner towards me. Plus, it's a body lead, so yeay.

MartinHarper wrote:You dance with some really bad followers.

Maybe you are only dancing with the good followers.

If the leader tightens his frame, the follower should match that, not carry on walking backwards on auto-pilot.

It doesn't always work with the women I dance with. A follower who knows enough about following should match the guys frame/tension. And I have prevented many collisions by increasing tension and shortening how far I allow my partner to step back. I have also avoided collisions by responding to increased tension from my partner.

On the other hand, I have been involved in collisions where I have seen the danger, increased tension/shortened distance, and my partner has responded by bending so she could step back despite my lead.

MartinHarper wrote:Wow. You dance with some really bad followers.

Strictly speaking yes, although I prefer to call them beginners. It turns out that a significant portion of the population isn’t born with the innate ability to do all this without practice, which is terribly inconsiderate but a reality I just have to deal with for now….. :rollseyes:

If the leader tightens his frame, the follower should match that, not carry on walking backwards on auto-pilot. If the leader pulls the follower's hand away from her, the follower should walk forwards, or stop walking backwards, not lose balance. This is pretty basic stuff. In the end, I'd rather pull a beginner off balance than have her walk into someone.

Aside from my last point, I was specifically thinking of a time where I’d pull the post up as short as it can go and the follower keeps travelling past that without noticing that something might be wrong. Sure, the follower should notice, but because the degree of connection varies more (in my experience) in WCS than MJ you actually need a pretty good frame and sensitivity to feel some of these things quickly if they happen at just the wrong moment. We tend to get around that by trying to develop that sensitivity, but that doesn’t happen overnight.

I disagree with your comment that the follower should necessarily stop travelling or start walking the other way if her hand is taken away from her. You might do something similar to lead decelerations or open her body up after a turn for instance*. It sounds good to say that’s what they should do in response to having their hand taken away, but I’m not convinced the answer is that clear-cut.

* To be fair in the cases I’m thinking of “leaving the hand behind” might be a better description. That’s getting very close to splitting hairs though, and although I’m not a follower I imagine it could be reasonably difficult to tell the difference with an unknown leader while pirouetting down the slot at high speeds. Particularly if she’s “very bad”