To bounce or not to bounce?

[straycat]

Sorry, I forgot about Merengue. It's the same dance as MJ.

...

I think it's convergent evolution. Both dances came from different places, but ended up in the same place.

So you'd class this as Modern Jive? Sure - there's some similarity in some of the moves, but taken as a whole, I don't see it.

One thing we can deduce from stray's post is that he thinks there's footwork in MJ.

You may deduce what you like
I'd say, though, that when you and I talk about footwork, we're talking about slightly different things. A little like when we talk about body leads.
If it makes you happy, though, I can tell you that when I dance MJ (or as close as I get to dancing MJ these days) I do use footwork. Not the footwork you teach, but definitely footwork.

Yes, of course there would be overlap - you've only got 2 feet, there's bound to be overlap. It's how the footwork fits the bar structure that makes the dances different and defines them.

The ballroom jive basic (correct me if I'm wrong) is a six-count triple. The Boogie Woogie basic is is a six-count triple. WCS and Lindy both use six-count triples as standard footwork patterns. This does not mean that they're all the same dance.

Personally, I think it's a terribly limited way to define a dance.

Define.... ballet.

[Andy McGregor]

Personally, I think it's a terribly limited way to define a dance.

But it is a simple definition that is consitent.

Define.... ballet.

Men in tights.

[Captain Jack]

One of the ways dances differentiate themselves is by the numbers of Quicks and Slows in a musical phrase. This change of tempo makes it "dancing", and not "walking".

IMHO going l-r-l-r at constant tempo isnt dancing, it's walking. And "walking" = "no footwork".

Having said which, footwork does get added to MJ when you start to vary the tempo. And that happens when you nick the steps from other dances eg a Charleston step, or a triple step a la WCS.

Leastways, that's how it looks to me at the moment

[Captain Jack]

N.B. When I asked this Salsa dancer why she's taken up Modern Jive rather than Salsa she told me that her former teacher is currently in prison for treason!!!

Sheesh!! I dont suppose its easy to dance with your teacher though when there's a glass partition between you

[Andy McGregor]

One of the ways dances differentiate themselves is by the numbers of Quicks and Slows in a musical phrase. This change of tempo makes it "dancing", and not "walking".

IMHO going l-r-l-r at constant tempo isnt dancing, it's walking. And "walking" = "no footwork".

This could be true if the footwork took no regard of the bar structure. However, in MJ the basic footwork requires you to know where you are in the bar. Therefore there IS footwork which is specific to the dance.

[geoff332]

One of the ways dances differentiate themselves is by the numbers of Quicks and Slows in a musical phrase. This change of tempo makes it "dancing", and not "walking".

IMHO going l-r-l-r at constant tempo isnt dancing, it's walking. And "walking" = "no footwork".

The basic waltz pattern is l-r-l r-l-r to a constant tempo. Are you suggesting that the waltz is not a dance?

As I see it, when you move your feet, you are doing some sort of footwork. When people say that MJ has no footwork, I think they mean that there is no consistent or essential footwork that defines the dance. A great example of that is the, 'step back on either foot' that I hear consistently from some ceroc teachers. Whether or not this is true and, if true, whether it is a good thing are quite different questions.

I think MJ is improved when taught with consistent footwork.

[straycat]

But it is a simple definition that is consitent.

A simple definition that has already led you to believe that MJ and merengue are the same thing

It doesn't work as a definition. I explained some of the reasons why in my previous post.

Men in tights.

In other words - impossible to define by your 'stepping pattern' method.

[Bubble]

To bounce or not to bounce?

Ask Tiggerbabe

[Lee Bartholomew]

OK......

There is clear definition for footwork in WCS,Lindy, All forms of Ballroom, Salsa, Tango etc etc etc

MJ is a freestyle dance. There is no right or wrong (no matter how much Andy thinks he is correct!), just like street dance or Hip Hop.

MJ is unique in that it's the only partner dance with this freedom in footwork and ability to rip from other forms of dance.

There is footwork that is preferable to make the dance easier but it is not needed to make the dance.

Infact strictly speaking, MJ is not a form of dance at all.

[Andy McGregor]

In other words - impossible to define by your 'stepping pattern' method.

Ballet is a performance dance. The performance can be written down in the same way as music. You would have just as much trouble defining "music" in a simple way.

As I said earlier, the basic footwork for MJ is clearly defined and is done consistently on dance floors across the country. All you have to do is observe what is going on and teach people to join in with the dance. There may be teachers who don't know what's going on, but that's a different argument for a different thread.

[Andy McGregor]

The basic waltz pattern is l-r-l r-l-r to a constant tempo. Are you suggesting that the waltz is not a dance?

We've only go two feet and there's only two options, change weight by stepping on to the other foot or hop. Part of what defines the dance is how you apply the weight changes within the bar structure of the music. It's what makes the waltz recognisable and it's what makes MJ recognisable - and what makes it the same a Merengue.

The main difference between Merengue and MJ is the decoration. I've not done enough Merengue to know this, but I'm guessing that there's little footwork variations - these variations are common in MJ, but the basic is stepping on every beat - just like the basic in the waltz, the basic is stepping on every beat, but there's variations where you do not step on every beat.

[Andy McGregor]

I think MJ is improved when taught with consistent footwork.

Abolutely right

This is particularly important in the turns and returns as the lady needs to be on the correct foot.

[David Bailey]

Sorry, I forgot about Merengue. It's the same dance as MJ.

No, it's really not - any more than Milonga is Modern Jive.

That said, with both Merengue and Milonga, the are a lot of overlaps which do make the transition easier. The overlaps are mainly in the conventions that you step on every beat.

Must be something about dances beginning with "M"....

But, for example, just off the top of my head, merengue:
- Doesn't use tension and compression
- Has a different hold ("close", I think, sums it up well :wink
- Has a different tempo (you typically step on every beat, not every other beat)
- Foot movements are smaller.

Apart from that...

However, she started at a MJ "class down the road" and was told she was wrong and that "it's not Merengue" - we've seen her every week since she found us

You're wrong, her first teacher is right.

Of course, it's completely possible to dance "MJ in a merengue style" to the appropriate music - and I do. But that doesn't make MJ the same as merengue.

For example, you don't spin in merengue.

[straycat]

You would have just as much trouble defining "music" in a simple way.

As with virtually any dance - exactly the point I've been trying to make.

It really doesn't bother me whether or not MJ has defined footwork. I simply don't believe this criteria forms a useful method of classifying most other dances.

[Andy McGregor]

Merengue

-snip-

- Has a different tempo (you typically step on every beat, not every other beat)

Are you saying that you believe you step on every other beat in MJ?

[Andy McGregor]

It really doesn't bother me whether or not MJ has defined footwork. I simply don't believe this criteria forms a useful method of classifying most other dances.

Footwork forms part of the criteria for the classification of dances. For example, try to describe WCS in any meanigful way without talking about the footwork*.

*There's other dances where you don't smile

[straycat]

Footwork forms part of the criteria for the classification of dances.

The stress being on the word 'part'. And this statement, as you've already said, doest not apply to all dances.

[Andy McGregor]

The stress being on the word 'part'. And this statement, as you've already said, doest not apply to all dances.

And, as I've already said, footwork forms "part" of the description of MJ. Other dances are the domain of other dance teachers. I'm only qualified to talk with authority about MJ.

This means the teacher who says "any foot will do" is wrong. However, that doesn't mean you can't have variations where you can choose either foot - this is more true for the lead than the follow. But it's a choice the lead can make within the footwork rules for the dance that fits in with with what they are expecting their partner to do with their feet - if there were no rules you would have no idea what to expect from your partner.

For instance, in the Manhattan you need to know what foot the lady will move or you will have a foot-on-foot moment

[straycat]

For instance, in the Manhattan you need to know what foot the lady will move or you will have a foot-on-foot moment

Why not simply lead her to move the leg you want her to move?

[Andy McGregor]

Why not simply lead her to move the leg you want her to move?

Because you're learning how to lead the move within the convention of a simple dance, not learning the complexities of how to lead weight distribution.