Rotation V Slot

[Steven666]

Nope, they're both rotational (or both circular) - you're just shifting the axis of rotation.

The axis can be the leader, the follower, or a mid-point in between the two.

Possibly, advanced dancers could actually modify this axis further - for example, to make the axis 1/3 of the way between the leader and follower - but I don't think we'll see that sort of level of technique in MJ in my lifetime.

Rotational and circular aren't interchangeable term here. I think this is where the confusion is. I get what your saying but in practice I don't really agree.

Similary withe the term rotational and rotating, dancing in a rotational manner is also different than dancing a purposely rotating move.

It's just not easy to explain without diagrams or demostration.

[David Bailey]

I've been copying people who actually know what they're talking about.

Hell, don't we all?

On the subject of my being a "proper dance teacher", I'm actively teaching on stage or doing private lessons for between 10 and 15 hours a week and teaching about 250 people a week. Add in preparation time and freestyle practice/coaching and I'm at it for about 40 hours a week. How much more time do I have to serve to be "proper"?

God know, decades probably. But that's more for the "Real teachers" thread

[David Bailey]

I think you're stretching things here. Although there's a conceptual axis of rotation in the case of walkaround moves, it's a lot more dubious to say the same for any kind of 'rotating slot' scenario.

Yes - sorry, I wasn't talking about rotating slot type dancing. Actually, I do that - following Marc's model of North-South or East-West - mainly for floorcraft reasons.

Rotational slotted dancing isn't really rotational, it's just shifting your direction of slot - either by choice, by necessity or by mistake.

I'm sticking with my description for "proper" rotational dancing, but yes, that may be less relevant to MJ than I originally thought, in that there aren't many "proper" rotational moves in the MJ syllabus.

[Andy McGregor]

Hell, don't we all?


God know, decades probably. But that's more for the "Real teachers" thread

I've been going to dance class for 3 decades already - and I still don't think I'm a "real dancer". I'll be 81 in 3 more decades - let's hope I can still walk

p.s. We have a guy of 87 who comes to our classes 2-3 nights a week, goes to ballroom twice a week looks after a flock of sheep with his sheepdog, goes to Spanish night classes, grows his own veg, makes his own wine, etc, etc - I wonder if he thinks he's "real" yet?

[Rocky]

I've been copying people who actually know what they're talking about. Me? I'm just a copycat - but those "proper dance teachers" got it from someone rather than inventing everything they say. The ones that do make all it up for themselves are the ones who worry me the most.

On the subject of my being a "proper dance teacher", I'm actively teaching on stage or doing private lessons for between 10 and 15 hours a week and teaching about 250 people a week. Add in preparation time and freestyle practice/coaching and I'm at it for about 40 hours a week. How much more time do I have to serve to be "proper"?

If you spent less time on the forum and devoted that time to teaching then maybe you would become a 'proper' teacher..

[Rocky]

p.s. We have a guy of 87 who comes to our classes 2-3 nights a week, goes to ballroom twice a week looks after a flock of sheep with his sheepdog, goes to Spanish night classes, grows his own veg, makes his own wine, etc, etc - I wonder if he thinks he's "real" yet?

So he's a swarthy looking old guy who is constantly drunk, smells of sheep, carries a courgette, can order a two beers in Spanish and has a hairy dog tied up outside.... are you sure you don't run Ceroc classes down there Andy??

[David Franklin]

Yes - sorry, I wasn't talking about rotating slot type dancing. Actually, I do that - following Marc's model of North-South or East-West - mainly for floorcraft reasons.

I don't think that's what I mean by "rotating slot".

In the absense of diagrams, think about clock positions, with the leader in the centre. Normal dancing in a slot would start with the follow at 12, and send her to 6 (leader making space as necessary). With a rotating slot, the follow starts at 12 and gets sent to 5 (or possibly even 4). On the next move, she goes from 5 to 10. If you draw her path you'll end up with a sort of star pattern. You will also see that the line segments (the "slot") do actually rotate about the center, even though the follower herself doesn't.

A key point is that the change in direction happens for every move, and it always happens in the same direction. So it's very definitely not the same as changing the direction of the slot for floorcraft reasons.

In my experience, a rotating slot is actually the most common way of dancing Ceroc - the fact that it doesn't rely on the lead getting out of the way (i.e. moving!) is probably significant here...

[David Bailey]

I don't think that's what I mean by "rotating slot".

{ snip explanation }

Ah. Sloppy dancing, in other words. Well, I can do that too

[Steven666]

Ah. Sloppy dancing, in other words. Well, I can do that too

I find it comfort dancing rather than sloppy dancing. I kept a look out for this yesterday.

One (newish) female lead lead the beginners routine perfectly down the slot twice through before going to freestyle. She continued to do the routine 3 or 4 more times through also staying in perfect slot. But as soon and I mean as soon as she started using other moves the original slot disappeared. Why was this? Maybe it was because she was comfortable with her own moves she used therefore the circulating was natural and not so comfortable with the routine moves so stuck to the lesson format explicity.

Apart from that I looked at other dancers and I came to one conclusion as to why this is happening and one conclusion only. It is the way the follower is returned. Many lady's were not directed to return on the spot. They are simple lead into constant travelling returns on every move except the travelling return is just not lead to cover 180 degrees. It will go from say 12 to 5, then 5 to 10 them 10 to 3 and so on, yet the move itself upto that point nearly always stayed exactly in slot.

It's all about the lead of the return as far as I'm concerned now.

[David Bailey]

But as soon and I mean as soon as she started using other moves the original slot disappeared. Why was this?

Sloppiness? Seriously, it's just a question of technique and practice.

Typically, it's easier for the leader not to move out of the way - and also, the follower gets used to the leader not moving out of the way, so "naturally" (or habitually) does the spoke thing. It takes effort and focus to break these habits - and leaders often have problems doing several difficult things at once.

For example, when leading Tango, I should focus on lots of areas, including:

• Clear leading
• Posture
• Intention / projection
• Footwork
• Frame
• etc.

On a good day, I reckon I can now get about 2 or 3 of these going at once for a short period. And until I can get to the "unconscious competence" level with these, I won't be able to achieve good technique.

[Steven666]

Sloppiness? Seriously, it's just a question of technique and practice.

I looked for this sloppiness but although you could call it that, it's only the returns that are being mislead. Yet it isn't always the fault of the lead. If the follower wants to walk and wander in a return as they physically are unable to turn on a spot, then is that sloppiness also?

[David Bailey]

If the follower wants to walk and wander in a return as they physically are unable to turn on a spot, then is that sloppiness also?

Well, yeah - "sloppy" may be a bit of a harsh term, but I'm pretty sure almost every follower can physically turn on a spot if led to do so.

Whilst it's not always the "fault" of the leader, a good enough leader can certainly compensate for any potential problems in a follower. The most obvious example that comes to mind is my recent travails with the West Manhattan.

[MartinHarper]

"sloppy" may be a bit of a harsh term, but I'm pretty sure almost every follower can physically turn on a spot if led to do so.

So, in this video:

YouTube - David James and Double Trouble Modern Jive SP June 07

I see a number of returns from 12 o'clock to 3 o'clock. Are they an example of this "sloppiness"?

[David Bailey]

So, in this video:

YouTube - David James and Double Trouble Modern Jive SP June 07

I see a number of returns from 12 o'clock to 3 o'clock. Are they an example of this "sloppiness"?

Absolutely. Do what I say not what I do.

Blimey, someone picks my worst dancing ever, puts it on the Interweb, and that's the standard I'm forever judged by

[Steven666]

So, in this video:

YouTube - David James and Double Trouble Modern Jive SP June 07

I see a number of returns from 12 o'clock to 3 o'clock. Are they an example of this "sloppiness"?

I saw them to. It mainly do to the returns. Partly the way they are lead and partly the way they are followed.

In fact I have just watched a load of related videos and haven't yet seen one dance staying in the slot.

[MartinHarper]

Blimey, someone picks my worst dancing ever, puts it on the Interweb, and that's the standard I'm forever judged by

Well you could claim that you were deliberately rotating the slot, rather than being sloppy.

On the plus side, it didn't look like a "train-crash of a dance" or a "controlled form of chaos".

[David Bailey]

Well you could claim that you were deliberately rotating the slot, rather than being sloppy.

I could blame the follower, of course

On the plus side, it didn't look like a "train-crash of a dance" or a "controlled form of chaos".

It's not diabolical, but it's just a mooch-around lazy dance, is all - so it's not surprising it's sloppy as hell. Certainly nothing I'd want on the net...

[David Franklin]

Blimey, someone picks my worst dancing ever, puts it on the Interweb, and that's the standard I'm forever judged by

It's a bit like shagging one lousy sheep, really...

Or in my case: You do one cabaret where you drop your wife on her head...

Looking at the clip of you, it is interesting how it's basically slotted other than the returns. It hadn't really occurred to me that one move would "cause all the damage" so to speak.

[straycat]

It's a bit like shagging one lousy sheep, really...

So you reckon the louse-free ones were better for your reputation?

[David Franklin]

So you reckon the louse-free ones were better for your reputation?

Just in case you really are confused, it's the punchline to a joke:

[indent]...shaggy dog start omitted...

“See this pub?” asks John, “I built it, but they don’t call me Pubbuilder John? I’m the local doctor, I saved Barman Jim’s life once when he choked on a peanut, but they don’t call me Lifesaver John. Every year, I supply a huge Christmas tree for the village green, but the don’t call me Christmas Tree John.

“But you shag one lousy sheep…”[/indent]