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Thread: New year, new dance...(apparently)

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Yes - but that concept of a slot (and the "get out of the way" bit) is not taught as standard in Ceroc..
    "Get out of the way" is exactly what was taught at both the Ceroc class I attended recently. It was also taught both at Lux and Breeze. It is also taught by Simon and Nicole who visit Bristol Leroc once a month

    But as emmylou says, what is taught and what people do are completely different things

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    This whole lets teach Ceroc slotted as a new thing staggers me! People seem to have forgotten that Ceroc is taught from the stage with the teacher and Demo parallel to the class all of whom are slotted!
    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Unless they actually teach the concept of slotted dancing, it's unlikely to have much effect.
    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Yes - but that concept of a slot (and the "get out of the way" bit) is not taught as standard in Ceroc. If that changes, great.
    Old ceroc is not taught slotted. Just because you are (sort of) dancing in a slot, doesn't make it slotted dancing. The three major things that aren't taught:
    1. The follow owns the slot; the lead has to get out of their way.
    2. Once the follow is led along the slot, they have to keep travelling along it; the only thing that should stop them is a lead.
    3. The leader is primarily responsible for orienting the dance on the slot (but it's a lot easier if the follow helps out too!)
    I've never seen any of these things explicitly taught in Ceroc here (some ceroc teachers do, but they are anomalies). Dancing back in forth in a line is not slotted dancing. Other may have slightly different lists, but the point is that dancing in the slot is quite a bit more than the way ceroc is currently taught. Take the first move (a good example, even if some people want it gone). As normally taught, the lead stays on the slot and the follow steps in to their side. A slotted version would involve the guy stepping back to their left, opening the slot. The connection would lead the follow to turn so you are now basically face to face; the follow continues the turn and travel along the slot to step back. The lead can either stay put or step back; in either case, catching the follow to arrest her travel. This ends up looking like a simple right-side pass...

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    But I'm still not convinced that slotted dancing is inherently "purer" or will teach better technique, compared to other styles.
    For me it's a question of clarity. Ceroc lacks a basic pattern for the dance, which I think most other dances do have. This is actually a weakness of ceroc that makes it harder to make learning it a progressive experience. Having some sort of core pattern that is actually taught gives a foundation to build on. I'm not saying that slotted dancing is the only valid foundation, but if it's used this way (which is sounds like it will be), then it is inherently better than not having any foundation. The reason it's so useful is it give both lead and follow a template so they can more easily interpret lead and follow.

    Of course, for slotted dancing to really work, you need other things that are good dance technique: tension/compression/connection, body leading, and frame. One hopes they chose to include this in the dance as well.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    I agree that all Ceroc lessons are taught in a slot but when I used to go to lessons, the term 'slot' was never mentioned.
    And circular dancing was never discouraged, it was just a personal preference, which style you chose.

    But nowadays I've realised that when dancing with someone who prefers to dancing in a circle, they're often the ones who pull me off axis, making me have to work harder not to wobble recovering from a spin.

    I think a lot of the newer ladies wonder why they feel unbalanced and with others, feel 'good' but usually atribute their wobbles down to their own inexperience

    I've now had enough experience to know if its 'me' or 'them' but I don't think being experienced really helps the the lead get any better, as we've usually learnt how to 'compensate' very well, therefore making the lead feel they're doing OK

    Its stands to reason, if your being spun and travelling around in a circle at the same time, its got to be harder, than simply spinning on the spot!
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  4. #64
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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Old ceroc is not taught slotted. Just because you are (sort of) dancing in a slot, doesn't make it slotted dancing.
    I think the old way of teaching was rather like passing on a narrow path. You both give way a bit. It's like you're dancing a figure of eight around each other rather than getting out of the way.

    I don't talk about slots. To me it just sounds daft to say the lady dances in a slot - the dance floor is flat, not slotted. I talk about the guy getting off the lady's line of dance, crossing the lady's line of dance, leading the lady down her line of dance, etc.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    But nowadays I've realised that when dancing with someone who prefers to dancing in a circle, they're often the ones who pull me off axis, making me have to work harder not to wobble recovering from a spin.
    I think this is because there's no direction to pivot turns. A spin on the spot is always on the spot. But adding a travel to the spin means the lady is doing a pivot turn, stepping out the turn - you need a direction of travel to make this work.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Having some sort of core pattern that is actually taught gives a foundation to build on. I'm not saying that slotted dancing is the only valid foundation, but if it's used this way (which is sounds like it will be), then it is inherently better than not having any foundation. The reason it's so useful is it give both lead and follow a template so they can more easily interpret lead and follow.
    That sounds reasonable. And it fits in with the teaching model.

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Of course, for slotted dancing to really work, you need other things that are good dance technique: tension/compression/connection, body leading, and frame. One hopes they chose to include this in the dance as well.
    Well, you need those for any dancing style. But no, I'd suspect you won't find those being taught in a normal Ceroc class.

  7. #67
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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Old ceroc is not taught slotted. Just because you are (sort of) dancing in a slot, doesn't make it slotted dancing. The three major things that aren't taught:
    1. The follow owns the slot; the lead has to get out of their way.
    2. Once the follow is led along the slot, they have to keep travelling along it; the only thing that should stop them is a lead.
    3. The leader is primarily responsible for orienting the dance on the slot (but it's a lot easier if the follow helps out too!)
    Item 1 is typically taught in Ceroc slotted dancing or slotted jive.
    Item 3 is implied.

    WCS enthusiast jive teachers may teach item 2, but the dance is still slotted without it.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    Item 1 is typically taught in Ceroc slotted dancing or slotted jive.
    I guess I missed it. Probably because they've never mentioned in all the classes, workshops, weekenders and so forth that I've been to.
    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    Item 3 is implied.
    If it were implied with any validity, I'd expect most people at most ceroc freestyles to dance in the slot.

    They don't.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    Item 1 is typically taught in Ceroc slotted dancing or slotted jive.
    Sorry to contradict you, frodo, I've never seen this at a Ceroc class or at many modern jive classes at all. At every Ceroc class I've ever attended there is no teaching that the lead should get out of their partner's way or get off their line of dance.

    The way I've observed the teaching of change-place moves at Ceroc is that the guy steps forwards and travels slightly diagonally to their left as the lady does the same. Then there's a little bit of correction so that the teachers stay side-on to the class. This is very, very different from the guy getting off the lady's line of dance and leading her straight down her line of dance

    p.s. Happy Christmas
    Last edited by Andy McGregor; 25th-December-2010 at 01:41 AM. Reason: Just noticed it's Christmas ...

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Sorry to contradict you, frodo, I've never seen this at a Ceroc class or at many modern jive classes at all. At every Ceroc class I've ever attended there is no teaching that the lead should get out of their partner's way or get off their line of dance.
    Well, we've always taught the moves like that and everyone we know that's a Ceroc teacher does too..

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    I am not as such on Andy's side but I have never in my 17 years (including 3 years as a Taxi), come across the lead being specifically instructed to move out of the ladies line.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    Item 1 is typically taught in Ceroc slotted dancing or slotted jive.
    Is it? Huh, I've never heard it... mind you I don't go to many classes.

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    Item 3 is implied.
    Again, not in my experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    WCS enthusiast jive teachers may teach item 2, but the dance is still slotted without it.
    Yes, Item 2 does sound a little too much like WCS to me. I'm not sure that it's necessarily an integral part of slotted MJ.

    That said, I think Geoff's list is good, and if you want to teach slotted dancing by default, you could do far worse than follow it.

    P.S. Ho ho ho.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    P.S. Ho ho ho.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Well, we've always taught the moves like that and everyone we know that's a Ceroc teacher does too..
    Semicircle to the left and both step back leaves the guy on the lady's line of dance. When does he step off the lady's line?

    p.s. A merry Christmas to one and all!

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    I find this whole thread amazing,,

    Modern jive is a proggresive dance still young and still young and developing, of course the teaching will change with time, the same as any other partner dance.

    these changes come from image, fashion and experience. These elements will always change as those at the top of teaching and demonstrations set the look. Those changes take time to be the norm.

    e,g funcky lush to Utopia

    Well done to Ceroc for changing the basic moves and good luck in setting a new standard for your dancers.

    We have also changed whithin the modern jive ( independents ) and continue to work on new ways of teaching fortified with a modern set of basic moves.

    Good luck to everyone on the journey of dance whether modern jive , leroc or ceroc.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Prian View Post
    I am not as such on Andy's side but I have never in my 17 years (including 3 years as a Taxi), come across the lead being specifically instructed to move out of the ladies line.
    Seriously? I've been taught that from the outset.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    As progressive as this is - the freestyle floor tends to be dominated by circular dancers who are unlikely to re-attend beginners lessons to learn the new methodology. I fear this is likely (however well intentioned Ceroc's changes are) to lead to those new trying to dance differently to the more "experienced" dancers to bow to said experience and mimic accordingly, thus developing the bad habits that (as far as I know) are NOT taught by Ceroc (or anyone else) but picked up on the freestyle floor!!

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    In 10 years of dancing and taking lessons within ceroc I have always been taught lessons within a slot BUT I have never been taught to get out of a ladies slot / line of dance. Infact when I have tried to dance MJ in a slot it is always with ladies that want to move around me without ever being lead. This dance usually ends up in a stop start type of dance

    If you want to make the dance more slotted you have to mention a slot and what the expectations are of the leaderand follower in the dance. IF YOU DON'T DO THAT YOU WILL NEVER MOVE A WAY FROM THE CIRCULAR MOTION.

    Just a side note, I don't mind dancing MJ in a circular motion as I don't move my feet that well

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    Just a side note, I don't mind dancing MJ in a circular motion as I don't move my feet that well
    But your hips are hipnotic

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    In 10 years of dancing and taking lessons within ceroc I have always been taught lessons within a slot BUT I have never been taught to get out of a ladies slot / line of dance.
    This has been my experience too. All the Ceroc classes I've seen the guy stands on the lady's line and leads her off her line to his right hand side.

    However, Rocky tells us that he doesn't teach this way and neither do any Ceroc teachers he knows...

    It's one thing to say you've changed to a new way because you've improved. It's another to say you were always doing it the new improved way

    The other thing is that Ceroc's website doesn't say they are now dancing in a slot with the guy getting off the lady's line.

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