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Thread: Leading: When does a push become a shove

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    Registered User Merovingian's Avatar
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    Leading: When does a push become a shove

    There have been many threads on how much tension is important in leading, but something that has plagued me since my first day in class, doing the first move, has been .. the right hand.

    In the first few weeks of my classes a few ladies were annoyed about how some of the leaders push 'em too hard or pull back too much (these ladies were not beginners), which has lead me to be gentle when leading the moves; and I have been leading a number of beginners and intermediate moves with varying degree of success, but sometimes dancing with some of the experienced followers I seem to get the comment "don't be so gentle with me" or "you can hold tighter".

    Now that's embarassing

    But the question here is when does a push become a shove?

    When trying something like a sway, how much of a hold is necessary and how much is acceptable?

    When trying something like the catapult / crossed return / first move surprise i.e. where the leaders are supposed to relocate the followers, how much of a pull is acceptable? (is it really an attempt at physical relocation, or just an indication and some help )

    erm .. help?

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    Registered User Ghost's Avatar
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    Re: Leading: When does a push become a shove

    Quote Originally Posted by Merovingian
    But the question here is when does a push become a shove?
    erm .. help?
    It depends (sorry ). The following are all generalities based on my limited experience.

    I've been described as "like dancing with feathers". Not everyone I dance with feels this is a good thing.

    In general, lady taxi dancers seem to develop more tension in their arms ( I believe as a defence against beginner leads yanking them around ). As such they prefer a stronger lead (note prefer - they can still follow a soft lead )

    Speed seems to be the other factor. The faster dancers prefer a stronger lead, which again if you're really moving is not unreasonable. Slower dancers prefer a softer lead

    Playfull dancers seem to work best with a soft lead so they have more space to interpret the music -

    The more intricate the moves the softer the lead too - when I lead Jango moves it's a strange blend of a very strong frame, but a very soft lead (Kind of a yin-yang thing)

    Ultimately do what you want and listen to feedback. If you can remember who likes a stronger lead, then it's up to you if you want to provide it. It's probably worth considering that as long as your moves are fluid and the elbows don't extend fully, you can use a lot of force in your lead without yanking (Kinda scary actually - you can lead with far more force than it'll take to pop a joint )

    Be Well,
    Christopher

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    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Leading: When does a push become a shove

    Here's a suggestion: designers of theme-park rides measure four parameters along each axis - velocity, acceleration, jolt, and jounce - each being the derivative w.r.t. time of the previous one. An exciting ride needs a sufficient quantity of both jolt and jounce at various points in time.

    In respect of the force you need to apply to an object of fixed mass, a constant force provides a constant acceleration, a force that increases linearly with time will provide a constant jolt, and a force that increases quadratically in time gives a constant jounce.

    Since (I suppose) a nice dance is probably diametrically opposed in feel to a ride at a theme-park, how about arranging the force exerted upon the follower through the lead points to minimise the a) jounce and b) jolt experienced by the follower while still moving the follower's arm/hip/[insert lead point] from one position of the move to the next consistent with remaining in time with the music.

    I also remember a research project that sought to establish that the body controlled its own motion in dynamic reaching tasks (like moving your hand to intercept a moving object) in such a way as to minimize the fourth time derivative of position (that would be correlate with the jounce as defined above). Supposing that having your body lead in a simlar way to the way it would move itself would be comfortable, minimizing the jounce seems like a good idea.

    I should add that I look forward to David Franklin telling me I'm talking a complete load of *******s.

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    Registered User Ghost's Avatar
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    Re: Leading: When does a push become a shove

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    Here's a suggestion: designers of theme-park rides measure four parameters along each axis - velocity, acceleration, jolt, and jounce - each being the derivative w.r.t. time of the previous one. An exciting ride needs a sufficient quantity of both jolt and jounce at various points in time.

    (snip)
    Since (I suppose) a nice dance is probably diametrically opposed in feel to a ride at a theme-park,
    What about an exciting dance? (This is actually intended as a serious question - I'm thinking more of velocity and acceleration, but jolts could be like yo-yo block direction changes? Jounces would be drops maybe?) - could you then increase the amount of force used?

    Be Well,
    Christopher

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Leading: When does a push become a shove

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    I should add that I look forward to David Franklin telling me I'm talking a complete load of *******s.
    Sorry to dissapoint, but I pretty much agree with everything you wrote. (I'd not heard about the research on human movement, but it wouldn't particularly surprise me).

    The only thing I'd add is that as a practical point when dancing, if you use a lot of force, you want to make sure your partner is expecting it. This is all kind of implicit in the jolt/jounce discussion - if you minimise the jolt, you don't change the acceleration (force) suddenly, so your partner knows what to expect. But your partner may also get advance warning from your grip, or from a change in the music, or even a verbal lead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost
    What about an exciting dance? (This is actually intended as a serious question - I'm thinking more of velocity and acceleration, but jolts could be like yo-yo block direction changes? Jounces would be drops maybe?) - could you then increase the amount of force used?
    As ESG says, the amount of force corresponds to the amount of acceleration - not the jolt or jounce. In simpler terms, using a lot of force is not necessarily a bad thing, but suddenly using a lot of force almost certainly is.

    As for doing dips and drops, I've come to the conclusion that you should do them smoothly if you want to avoid injuries. You can do sharp snappy drops, but you and your partner will be taking a lot of the strain on your joints and tendons, which isn't great for long term health. Fine if it's your competition partner and you agree to do the moves like that, but in general freestyle it's not a good plan.

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    The Oracle
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    Re: Leading: When does a push become a shove

    For normal vertical dancing (ie no drops, leans or aerials) then the force comes from the lady's legs, not the mans arms.

    Any lady who says you need to be stronger should stop being lazy and move herself. Laziness is the man's job.

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    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Leading: When does a push become a shove

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidB
    For normal vertical dancing (ie no drops, leans or aerials) then the force comes from the lady's legs, not the mans arms.

    Any lady who says you need to be stronger should stop being lazy and move herself. Laziness is the man's job.
    Not always. Aside from the fact that I think you're confusing force with energy ("the energy comes from the lady's legs..."), how would you lead the lady into a triple spin on the spot without more force than you'd use for a single spin? How do you indicate that you want to double-time a move except to lead it faster - which you can only do with extra force?

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    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Leading: When does a push become a shove

    Quote Originally Posted by Merovingian
    In the first few weeks of my classes ...
    I think this is the crucial line in Merovingian's post... In classes moves are often done in a start-stop way, so there can be lots of pushing and shoving that shouldn't happen in dancing for real as all the steps in the moves are smoothed out.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Registered User Ghost's Avatar
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    Re: Leading: When does a push become a shove

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    how would you lead the lady into a triple spin on the spot without more force than you'd use for a single spin?
    I've learnt the lady will do what she wants. Val Forsey admits to having blown off Dave's extra energy when he wanted her to do a triple in freestyle and instead just performed a nice sloooooooow single turn I never quite know how many spins the lady will do - I see it as a style point for them to decide. I may offer enough energy for a triple, but what they do with it is up to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    How do you indicate that you want to double-time a move except to lead it faster - which you can only do with extra force?
    This sounds right, but I know it's wrong. Provided the lady is following well, the amount of force between you is (pretty much) constant. I can (and have) run across a room with a woman* with a very light lead (empty dance floor - had to be done ). Halo polishing is light, no matter how fast I do it.

    Be Well,
    Christopher

    EDIT * forgot that rather important detail

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    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Leading: When does a push become a shove

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost
    I've learnt the lady will do what she wants.
    Most of the time, the lady *wants* to do what I'm trying to lead*, otherwise there's not a lot of point in dancing with me!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost
    This sounds right, but I know it's wrong.
    Not much to discuss, then, is there?

    As regards the amount of force you put in to a lead - it's not just up to you alone, for you can only ever put in as much as your partner puts back, otherwise your frame collapses or your hand(s) shoot off into the distance (just like when you stand, the floor only ever pushes back on your feet exactly as hard as you bear down on it - otherwise you would shoot upwards into space, or fall down through it.) A good follower will give you back exactly what you put in - that force then becomes a mode of communication between you. It's a subtle thing, really.

    *Except Tessalicious, for some reason.
    Last edited by El Salsero Gringo; 29th-May-2006 at 12:25 AM.

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    Re: Leading: When does a push become a shove

    Thanks to ESG for a very good technical post. I learned something.

    The phrases I try to remember are "body lead" vs "arm lead". If you lead the girl by waving your arms around, it's very easy to give her lots of jolt and jounce without really meaning to. On the other hand, because:

    Quote Originally Posted by ESG
    the body controlls its own motion ... in such a way as to minimize the (jounce)
    ... it therefore follows that if your arms are leading the girl as a consequence of movement of your body, then you will naturally minimise the amount of jounce you give her. An example would be the "Ceroc Spin" - you can lead the spin by turning your body, so your arms only move as a consequence of you turning your body. This pretty much guarantees that your lead will be decent. Oh, and it's meant to look better than standing still.

    Quote Originally Posted by Merovingian
    When trying something like a sway, how much of a hold is necessary and how much is acceptable?
    You can hold about as much as a strong hug. A strong hold can make it easier lead/follow some moves, as the girl can feel where the whole of your body is, but I wouldn't say it's necessary. Most folks like being hugged anyway, so don't be shy.

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    Re: Leading: When does a push become a shove

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost
    I can (and have) run across a room with a woman with a very light lead
    Running across the floor is constant velocity, so you don't necessarilly need any force at all to lead that, depending how much "friction" your follower has.

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    Re: Leading: When does a push become a shove

    Quote Originally Posted by Merovingian
    ... sometimes dancing with some of the experienced followers I seem to get the comment "don't be so gentle with me" or "you can hold tighter".
    I would say from the information given(*) that you seem to be "loseing" your connection with your partner, then re-establishing it further down the lead when the follower has caught up with you. The problem here is not really that your lead is too light, but that it is not consistant. To the follower, it seems that the contact is hesitant and as soon as they feel some pressure, you remove it again - hence the comments.

    (*...this is deduction and supposition; I may be talking a load of manure)

    But the question here is when does a push become a shove?
    When you exceed the amount of force needed to actually move your partner. Then it's a shove. The amount of resistance and pressure you give in your lead should equal what the follower is giving you in their responsiveness.

    A simple test is leading them forward while you step back: try to keep the hand in exactly the same place relative to your body and gently step back; what you feel in the connection when the follower moves towards you is roughly the amount of force needed to lead them during the rest of the dance. Obviously this will change as you guide the follower through the dance, but it should be the base to work up and down from.

    I have led men who have just starting to follow where I needed to bully them through the moves; move them and stop them - I have led ladies that move with the lightest flexing of my finger tips. I can dance with/lead both because I equal the force given in the connection.

    When trying something like a sway, how much of a hold is necessary and how much is acceptable?
    Enough to move them; again, a constant lead with tension pulling your partner towards you, then leading them with the hand out to the side to start them turning,and stepping forward yourself and pushing the hand forward to finish the turn and collect them at your side.
    Too much? dragging the follower through the move.
    Too little? as long as the follower can follow, you should be able to air-lead this with no contact.

    When trying something like the catapult / crossed return / first move surprise i.e. where the leaders are supposed to relocate the followers, how much of a pull is acceptable? (is it really an attempt at physical relocation, or just an indication and some help )
    Neither - it's a guide. If you take your child's hand to have them follow you, you wouldn't pull at it and drag them along with you (normally ) and you don't give a light tug and see if they move where you want to: you provide a constant pull in the right direction.

    If you are moving the follower accross the floor (or swapping places), you need the same force as if you were leading them on the spot, the only difference is that you are moving more. How much force dose it take to get a follower to take a step forward at the second count? Why should it take any more to lead them to take another step? or more?

    Spins & turns; I have danced with ladies that can spin until they bore a hole in the ground - I'm learning that primaraly I need to give them a stable platform to push off of; if they want to do multiples, they will push off harder. If I push, I will most likley send them off balance - they are pushing off me and I am pushing off them; the force I give is doubled when the follower gets it.
    Again, I have found that a constant lead can dictate the speed of the turn rather than abrupt 'shove' that just says "Spin. Now.".

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    Re: Leading: When does a push become a shove

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    Not always. Aside from the fact that I think you're confusing force with energy ("the energy comes from the lady's legs..."), how would you lead the lady into a triple spin on the spot without more force than you'd use for a single spin? How do you indicate that you want to double-time a move except to lead it faster - which you can only do with extra force?
    If the energy comes from the legs, then where does the force come from?

    I think you are confusing leading with judo. I don't move the lady - I just suggest where she should go. The energy I'm supplying is only enough to move the lady's hand, not her body. It is her job to move everything else.

    I don't lead a double or triple free spin. I lead a free spin and let her decide how many times to go round. She might push off my hand harder, and I might have to work harder to keep my hand still, but that is as a result of her following, not me leading.

    Most 'double time' moves I do just omit a movement from the 'standard' move. The 'double time' is an illusion, and I lead with the same force - just a different direction.

    Even leading a return with a double spin in 1 count is more about timing than force. You don't have to lead harder - just lead the first turn sooner.

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    Registered User Clive Long's Avatar
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    Re: Leading: When does a push become a shove

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost
    I've learnt the lady will do what she wants. Val Forsey admits to having blown off Dave's extra energy ....
    Would you you care to rephrase that? Or at least point me in Val Forsey's direction?

    Wodger

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    Re: Leading: When does a push become a shove

    Next time you catch a bus, stand up. Cup your hand around a pole -- no thumbs, no gripping, keep your arm as relaxed as possible while maintaing your frame -- and feel the compression and resistance as you maintain your position while the bus moves.

    Do it on a few buses, so you can experience the difference between the driver who approaches the lights at full speed then slams on the brakes, then slams down the accelerator as soon as the lights go green, compared with the driver who slows to a smooth stop and accelerates smoothly.

    Decide which experience felt better, and try to replicate that feeling for your follower.

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    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Leading: When does a push become a shove

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidB
    If the energy comes from the legs, then where does the force come from?
    You can provide a force, without providing any energy. Push hard against a wall - lots of force, but if you maintain your equilibrium - keep still - no energy transfer occurs between you and the wall. The strength of a lead doesn't determine how much energy the follower takes from it - that's up to her.
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidB
    I think you are confusing leading with judo.
    Yes - that's it - Judango - a new tripartite fusion between Modern Jive, Tango and Martial Arts!
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidB
    I don't lead a double or triple free spin.
    I do.
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidB
    Most 'double time' moves I do just omit a movement from the 'standard' move. The 'double time' is an illusion, and I lead with the same force - just a different direction.
    What's your advice for changing a Columbian from single to double time without using a stronger lead?
    Last edited by El Salsero Gringo; 29th-May-2006 at 11:29 AM.

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    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Leading: When does a push become a shove

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidB
    I think you are confusing leading with judo.
    I know you were being facetious, and that you might not see a similarity with the follow-the-hand style of leading, but there's much in common between Judo and a good dance lead. Particularly for moves like a first move walk through, penguin walk, columbian, and others where the leader just needs to co-opt the follower's existing momentum into dancing the move. Heck, even the humble yo-yo has a turn-and-block.

    I've been waltzed around the floor before by a man who understood how to steer my momentum and it's exhilarating and exciting. I know Ceroc moves that have the same feel for the follower too. There's no way they are going to work by "following the hand" or without the input of force and, yes, energy from me.

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    The Perfect Woman!
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    Re: Leading: When does a push become a shove

    I feel the need to comment that DavidB and ESG lead two completely different dances (although they are both within the bounds of MJ).

    ESG leads moves that he expects me to follow, and its up to me to chosse to follow or not

    DavidB leads me into a position where I can decide what I am going to do with the opportunity, usually in a certain direction, and dependent on the direction the music is taking...

    I am not saying that one is better than the other, but that in talking of leading they are IMHO talking about different things.... Which is one of the reasons that there is diagreement...

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Leading: When does a push become a shove

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    I should add that I look forward to David Franklin telling me I'm talking a complete load of *******s.
    Don't worry - normal service is resumed...
    You can provide a force, without providing any energy. Push hard against a wall - lots of force, but if you maintain your equilibrium - keep still - no energy transfer occurs between you and the wall.
    I think you'll find DavidB is quite aware of the physical equations involved...
    The strength of a lead doesn't determine how much energy the follower takes from it - that's up to her.
    Do you really mean this? You seem to be implying that you provide all the force required for the follow's movement, and it's up to her how much to resist. Outside of a few exceptional circumstances (Judo!), this isn't what should be happening in a dance. The lead provides an indication of the required movement, and the follow moves according to that indication. In other words, you seem to be saying the follow resists and so acts as a dampener on the lead - while DavidB and I would say she is an amplifier.

    If you look at, say, a whip in WCS, a follow will move maybe 3m in each direction during the move. So a 120bpm track gives 2 seconds to move 3 meters (and being at a stop at each end). That's an average acceleration of 3m/s^2. So if a follow weighs 60kg, and I'm providing all the energy, then that's an average force of ~20kg I'm applying - usually through 2 fingers. I don't think so. (Yes, I can physically do this, but I'd be very aware I'm doing so).

    Or just consider trying to lead a shopping trolley loaded to 60kg. I think you'll find it rather harder to lead it through rapid movements and changes of direction that the average follower.

    What's your advice for changing a Columbian from single to double time without using a stronger lead?
    Without getting into all the ins and outs of leading a particular move, I'll just observe that just because the lead is stronger it doesn't mean it's providing the energy. When I push harder on the accelerator of the car, it doesn't mean I'm providing the energy to make it go faster.

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