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Thread: Freedom of speech?

  1. #21
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    Re: Freedom of speech?

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    Out of all the colonies which were under Britain's jackboot, I'd say only the USA, Canada and Australia thrived after attaining their independance?
    Jackboot ?

    There were many other European powers claiming ownership in North America, so you can't blame it all on Britain.

    And thriving nations after independance ? have Ireland, New Zealand, Singapore and South Africa (to name a few) all imploded since leaving the British Empire then ?

    Sometimes you seem to resort to random flights of wild speculation based on limited knowledge.

  2. #22
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    Re: Freedom of speech?

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    Although, having travelled on the tube every day for the last 4 years I would have to say it's not just a matter of banning cars, but improving the public transport system enormously.
    And the public transport system in London is a lot better than many other cities in the UK.
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    Re: Freedom of speech?

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    Out of all the colonies which were under Britain's jackboot, I'd say only the USA, Canada and Australia thrived after attaining their independance? .
    I am not sure the native american indians, inuik, or the aborigional people whould share your view of "thrive". One persons view of "progress" is not always shared by everyone.

    I do feel that India has not been harmed too much by our forebears using it as their own private playground even though it doesn' make it onto your "thriving" list. The UK set up some institutions like the courts system and the railways and they have been kept on because they are useful. The UK has done a lot of reprehensible things areound the world in the past but that is all now past and the question is what can/should we do about it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    I'm hardly in a position to correct this.
    The is hardly any point having freedom of speech if you are not interested in using it. You have the right to peaceful protest. You can ask questions of your M.P. Each of us can make a difference because if enough of us feel the same way and express it then I still believe (perhaps niavely) that things can change.

    You can make constructive and acheivable suggestions and perhaps people will see them and lend support until things are made to change. Orphanages have been built, wells have been dug, vaccines and drugs have been given free to those that need them, schools have been built and staffed, and troops have been sent to keep warring factions apart in this way. Not in every case, but it is hard to save the whole world, though that should not be any reason why we can't try.

    Merely saying that we were bad in the past using the jackboot of imperialism on other peoples around the world without suggesting what might be done to correct this now is a mere statement of fact and doesn't move a debate in any direction at all. You have freedom of speech but unless you are going to use it to say something constructive then it is just noise signifying nothing.

    I just thought you were trying to make a point but I couldn't work out what it was.

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    Re: Freedom of speech?

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    Out of all the colonies which were under Britain's jackboot, I'd say only the USA, Canada and Australia thrived after attaining their independance?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    have Ireland, New Zealand, Singapore and South Africa (to name a few) all imploded since leaving the British Empire then ?
    Those who continued in a similar way to how it was run, have thrived.

    Those who simply wanted independance (and got it) with no decent plan of success, have failed.

    If you have kicked out "the oppressor" and you have now failed... do not go back to the "oppressor" and scream foul. You got what you wanted, now deal with it.

    It is silly to blame others now you have complete control.

    It is rather like me taking over a successful business, running it into the ground, then blaming the previous business owner.

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    Re: Freedom of speech?

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    Those who continued in a similar way to how it was run, have thrived.

    Those who simply wanted independance (and got it) with no decent plan of success, have failed.

    If you have kicked out "the oppressor" and you have now failed... do not go back to the "oppressor" and scream foul. You got what you wanted, now deal with it.

    It is silly to blame others now you have complete control...
    "you" may not have complete control.

    One of the techniques of colonialism is "divide and conquer". Often a minority group will be promoted over the majority, getting preference in Government controlled jobs. The will be a suppressed majority, at best impatient for the situation to be rectified, at worse seeking bloody revenge.

    It is rather like me taking over a successful business, running it into the ground, then blaming the previous business owner.
    Quite often the "successful" business only works at all due to excessive policing and expenditure. They get independence only because disaster is impending and there is no longer any profit to be had. The people are set up to be ruled, not set up to rule.

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    Re: Freedom of speech?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    "you" may not have complete control.

    One of the techniques of colonialism is "divide and conquer". Often a minority group will be promoted over the majority, getting preference in Government controlled jobs. The will be a suppressed majority, at best impatient for the situation to be rectified, at worse seeking bloody revenge.

    Quite often the "successful" business only works at all due to excessive policing and expenditure. They get independence only because disaster is impending and there is no longer any profit to be had. The people are set up to be ruled, not set up to rule.
    We must be twins bigdjiver.

    Also lets not forget the crippling loans that we sell before we leave.

    This is what the Drop The Debt is about.

    Any GDP these countries have goes to pay off the interest on their loans.

    Interest - not the actually loan, which they have no chance of paying back. The British banks knew that when they persuded them to take out a loan. Money for jam eh?

    It never gets to be used to build schools, hospitals or a welfare system.

    This is why they do not thrive, because of the millstone of capitalism still around their necks.

    Fairtrade is a brilliant idea - this helps fight against trading being stacked againt weak countries.

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    Re: Freedom of speech?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    I have heard it alleged that we deliberately drew the map of the middle east, where we could, to create conflicts within nations and between them, for our interests, not theirs.
    And where exactly was this alleged, and by what reputable authority?

    After World War 1 and the defeat/fall of the Ottoman Empire, the territories of the Empire were carved up, largely between Britain and France, as mandates under the League of Nations. Similar arrangements were put in place for the ex-German colonies in Africa.

    There were all sorts of reasons for this territorial land-grabbing, the lines were drawn pretty arbitrarily based largely on the old Empire's administrative divisions, and I am sure the wishes of minority groups like the Kurds weren't given much consideration (although there were provisions in the mandates for the rights of all inhabitants to be respected irrespective of race, religion etc).

    But I haven't heard before that the drawing of the lines on the map was done deliberately to create conflicts, which would be bizarre given that British lives would be lost in deaking with those conflicts!
    Last edited by John S; 9th-April-2009 at 12:26 PM.

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    Re: Freedom of speech?

    Quote Originally Posted by John S View Post
    ... I am sure the wishes of minority groups like the Kurds weren't given much consideration (although there were provisions in the mandates for the rights of all inhabitants to be respected irrespective of race, religion etc)...
    Stick the Sunni in with the Shia, and tell them to repect each others rights. Hmmm

    ... But I haven't heard before that the drawing of the lines on the map was done deliberately to create conflicts, which would be bizarre given that British lives would be lost in deaking with those conflicts!
    The idea is to let them get on with it. Iran fights Iraq? Won't be our problem.

    Israel and neighbours? Won't be our problem.

    Kurdish indepence movement? Won't be our problem.

    The best laid plans slipped on oil.

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    Re: Freedom of speech?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    Stick the Sunni in with the Shia, and tell them to repect each others rights. Hmmm

    The idea is to let them get on with it. Iran fights Iraq? Won't be our problem.

    Israel and neighbours? Won't be our problem.

    Kurdish indepence movement? Won't be our problem.

    The best laid plans slipped on oil.
    Presumably then you would rather that we denied them their "right" to hate/fight each other by sending in an army to conquer and colonise them, and stay there to keep the peace???????

    We scuttled out of the Palestine mandate precisely because we coudn't.

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    Re: Freedom of speech?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    Stick the Sunni in with the Shia, and tell them to repect each others rights. Hmmm.
    I can see that would be as silly as expecting protestant christains and catholic christians to show christainity to each other in Northen Ireland. Who could expect different flavours of Muslins to get along with each other in a Muslim country especially when the minority section get all the top goverment jobs and discriminate against the majority. I see your point. We should have seen it coming. It is all our fault. What do you suggest we do about it?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    The idea is to let them get on with it. Iran fights Iraq? Won't be our problem. .
    You mean they didn't fight with each other before we were there?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    Israel and neighbours? Won't be our problem..
    This one I can see. Israel was a creation of the allies after the second world war and the people that were there were very unhappy about these jewish people being back in their land. After all they hadn't been kicked out by the christians but the muslim army of Saladin in 600ad had managed to eject them and they hadn't wanted them back.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    Kurdish indepence movement? Won't be our problem..
    This one I can see (really I can). How silly of people to put a border right through the middle of the area that a group of people live. If the Kurds were being treated well by the goverments on both sides of the border and being allowed to govern most of their own affairs then they may well be in a situation that, although not ideal, they could at least deal with. This is not the case and both goverments don't seem to be performing to their (the Kurds) satisfaction and they want to be able govern themselves. In the circumstances it seems perfectly reasonable.

    Do you really think the British and the Turks put the border there in order to create an enduring pain in the butt for themselves?

    What do you think we should do? Do you think we should invade and occupy Irag? (limited success for the Kurds so far).

    Should we invade and occupy Turkey?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    The best laid plans slipped on oil.
    Or Diamonds, gold, tungsten, nickel, wheat, rice, land to grow food, water to grow food with. Is it your belief that the west set up these borders so that conflict would ensue and these countries would have to sell their natural resources to buy weapons from the west? As a theory I would have no way of disproving it but I would be interested in any evidence that you could point me to.

    It would be hard to see how we are involved in Sudan and Darfur. We are pumping £1 million per day in food aid to keep displaced people alive while the warring sides are spending the same amount on weapons and warring each day. As far as I can gather they are fighting over an awful lot of sand with not much water and a belief that the other side are somehow wrong (about something).

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    Re: Freedom of speech?

    Quote Originally Posted by John S View Post
    Presumably then you would rather that we denied them their "right" to hate/fight each other by sending in an army to conquer and colonise them, and stay there to keep the peace???????

    We scuttled out of the Palestine mandate precisely because we coudn't.
    In Iraq and Iran the west left somewhat pro-west but unpopular rulers nominally in control. We let Sadaam take over, punish Iran, suppress religious extremism, and know we are back there with our armies, once again leaving a country with Shia and Sunni and Kurds, all with with even more extremists seeking revenge and contrary political ends.

    We helped set up Israel. Whatever the propoganda said I believe that most politicians knew it would lead to prolonged conflict.

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    Re: Freedom of speech?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post

    And thriving nations after independance ? have Ireland,
    New Zealand, Singapore
    I think Singapore is a business centre which was 'bought' from Malaysia.
    and South Africa
    (to name a few) all imploded since leaving the British Empire then ?

    Sometimes you seem to resort to random flights of wild speculation based on limited knowledge.
    touche
    Quote Originally Posted by Chef View Post
    I am not sure the native american indians, inuik, or the aborigional people whould share your view of "thrive". One persons view of "progress" is not always shared by everyone.
    I do feel that India has not been harmed too much by our forebears using it as their own private playground even though it doesn' make it onto your "thriving" list.
    The UK set up some institutions like the courts system and the railways
    that old chestnut
    and they have been kept on because they are useful.

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    Re: Freedom of speech?

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    STUFF
    Astro, you must be smoking some good stuff.

    How far back do you take this halucinogenic view that it was all somebody else's fault from some bygone colonial time. Do some of these countries with murderous corrupt governments not have to take some ownership for their own predicament? All over the world tribal groupings, or religions or any one of a dozen possible reasons exist for screwing over the next man (or woman of course - I'm an equal opportunity screwer). And this has been so since way before Britain had an empire so let's not carry on with this silly lefty view that the British 'jackboot' is the root of all evil in the world.

    All sorts of people have drawn arbitrary lines on maps based on conquest (indeed Canada and the US are separated by just such a line). British Colonialism had good and bad points no doubt, but why stop there? How far back should we go to get at these evil colonial influences? I personally would like to have a go at Macedonia, Alexander the Great had a lot to answer for you know. Maybe Egypt could be another target, and lets not let Rome and the Italians away with their slice of the blame.

    It's all completely pointless harping back even a few decades never mind centuries or milennia because unless you are some kind of time lord the past is past. Borders are where they are and people have to find the maturity to deal with them.

    Many of the countries that are up to their neck in debt could help themselves far more if they were not fundamentally corrupt. The fact that once upon a time there was an ######### Empire doesn't mean some tinpot arsehole has an excuse now for raping and pilaging his own country and sending the money out to a private bank account in Switzerland. Nor does it give them the right to have murderous bands of thugs terrorising their own people.

    There comes a time when at a national level you have to stop feeling sorry for yourself, stop blaming others, and start taking ownership for making things better since guess what, that is the only way things will get better. That time is long past in much of the post-colonial world and the trendy lefty view that we should all engage in some post-colonial self-flagellation for the sins of our great-grandfathers only prolongs the misery for millions of people that are oppressed by their own kind!

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    Re: Freedom of speech?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    "you" may not have complete control.

    One of the techniques of colonialism is "divide and conquer". Often a minority group will be promoted over the majority, getting preference in Government controlled jobs. The will be a suppressed majority, at best impatient for the situation to be rectified, at worse seeking bloody revenge.

    Quite often the "successful" business only works at all due to excessive policing and expenditure. They get independence only because disaster is impending and there is no longer any profit to be had. The people are set up to be ruled, not set up to rule.
    This is what happens at the 'Independance Handover'
    Quote Originally Posted by Agente Secreto View Post

    How far back do you take this halucinogenic view that it was all somebody else's fault from some bygone colonial time.
    As far back as the finger can point.
    Do some of these countries with murderous corrupt governments not have to take some ownership for their own predicament? All over the world tribal groupings, or religions or any one of a dozen possible reasons exist for screwing over the next man (or woman of course - I'm an equal opportunity screwer).
    Could it be that they copy the previous colonist's tactics?
    And this has been so since way before Britain had an empire so let's not carry on with this silly lefty view that the British 'jackboot' is the root of all evil in the world.
    I also include Portugal, Spain, Belgium, France, Germany, Holland, Italy, Japan, USA and ex USSR.
    Last edited by DavidY; 11th-April-2009 at 09:35 PM. Reason: Fixing quotes

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    Re: Freedom of speech?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agente Secreto View Post
    All sorts of people have drawn arbitrary lines on maps based on conquest (indeed Canada and the US are separated by just such a line). British Colonialism had good and bad points no doubt, but why stop there? How far back should we go to get at these evil colonial influences? I personally would like to have a go at Macedonia, Alexander the Great had a lot to answer for you know. Maybe Egypt could be another target, and lets not let Rome and the Italians away with their slice of the blame.
    This is true. A bit of line drawing can cause genocide. Millions can die.

    Take the case of the creation of West Pakistan and East pakistan (Now Pakistan and Bangladesh). The partitioning was done in a rush as Britain got ready to leave. They didn't want to leave, they were forced out.

    Shades of BidDjiver's theory on the partitioning of Palestine?
    It's all completely pointless harping back even a few decades never mind centuries or milennia because unless you are some kind of time lord the past is past. Borders are where they are and people have to find the maturity to deal with them.
    No, the past dictates the future. There are natural borders created by mountain ranges, seas and rivers. Man made borders are a hazard IMO.
    Many of the countries that are up to their neck in debt could help themselves far more if they were not fundamentally corrupt. The fact that once upon a time there was an ######### Empire doesn't mean some tinpot arsehole has an excuse now for raping and pilaging his own country and sending the money out to a private bank account in Switzerland. Nor does it give them the right to have murderous bands of thugs terrorising their own people.
    Robert Mugabe was Oxford educated and backed by the British when they pulled out of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe and Zambia)
    There comes a time when at a national level you have to stop feeling sorry for yourself, stop blaming others, and start taking ownership for making things better since guess what, that is the only way things will get better. That time is long past in much of the post-colonial world and the trendy lefty view that we should all engage in some post-colonial self-flagellation for the sins of our great-grandfathers only prolongs the misery for millions of people that are oppressed by their own kind!
    Far from it being post-colonial self-flagellation, the 'trendy left wing' and many others are angry at the injustice.

    They picket Embassies, raise awareness through the media . The media are not interested unless it becomes genocide.

    What do you do if you've been dealt a bad hand?

    I agree about the internal corruption, of course. It happens in the UK too on a daily basis, but more money to go around - less impact on whether we eat or not.
    Last edited by Astro; 11th-April-2009 at 02:13 PM.

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    Re: Freedom of speech?

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    Robert Mugabe was Oxford educated and backed by the British when they pulled out of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe and Zambia)
    And why would you back someone who was recommended by those you kicked out?

    You kicked them out to take back what you wanted.

    So come up with a plan... In the absence of a plan.... be really silly and go with "the oppressors that you kicked out" plan.

    Get real, independance was wanted. Independance was given.

    The c**k up is, now we have independance, what do we do?

    Do we go back to tribal living, do we take on the evil capitalist life, do we take what money we can from dumb goodie deeds countries and run.

    If you think you can make your country run better... prove it.

    Some have proved it, some have failed, and now like to protest and blame others.

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    Re: Freedom of speech?

    Last night I wrote a response to Agente Secreto's post, but I then thought that I was pre-empting Astro's response, and decided to wait for that....


    First denigrate your opponent:
    Quote Originally Posted by Agente Secreto View Post
    Astro, you must be smoking some good stuff.

    How far back do you take this halucinogenic view ...
    then misrepresent what they said:

    that it was all somebody else's fault from some bygone colonial time.
    Do not quote their actual words or counter any points made:

    ...Originally Posted by Astro
    STUFF
    -----------------------
    Do some of these countries with murderous corrupt governments not have to take some ownership for their own predicament?
    Of course they do. Where does she say they are blameless?

    All over the world tribal groupings, or religions or any one of a dozen possible reasons exist for screwing over the next man (or woman of course - I'm an equal opportunity screwer). And this has been so since way before Britain had an empire so let's not carry on with this silly lefty view that the British 'jackboot' is the root of all evil in the world.
    Where does Astro say otherwise?
    ...British Colonialism had good and bad points no doubt, but why stop there? How far back should we go to get at these evil colonial influences? I personally would like to have a go at Macedonia, Alexander the Great had a lot to answer for you know. Maybe Egypt could be another target, and lets not let Rome and the Italians away with their slice of the blame...
    We have the Romans to thank for much of our colonial expertise. As well as their own massive contribution they wrote down, collected and preserved the colonial expertise that went before. One reason our Public Schools taught Latin just so that our diplomats and generals could learn from them. They learned from experts.

    It's all completely pointless harping back even a few decades never mind centuries or milennia because unless you are some kind of time lord the past is past.
    A million year old mountain ridge is still significant today.

    Another technique or argument is to show the opposition contradictng themselves.

    ...All sorts of people have drawn arbitrary lines on maps based on conquest...

    ...Borders are where they are and people have to find the maturity to deal with them....
    If there are real reasons why a border should be somewhere else, and the present bad border was imposed by force, then people have the last resort of resorting to force to correct them. All over the world people with a defined culture and history of being a nation have found their territory split between conquerors and their culture suppressed. e.g Kurds, Basques

    India was one nation under the British, but split into three when we left, with massive issues over borders, resulting in war and revolt. I remember the pathetic streams of refugees fleeing south from Muslim Pakistan, passing an equally patheit stream of Muslims fleeing north from oppression in some parts of India.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Pakistan

    Many of the countries that are up to their neck in debt could help themselves far more if they were not fundamentally corrupt. The fact that once upon a time there was an ######### Empire doesn't mean some tinpot arsehole has an excuse now for raping and pilaging his own country and sending the money out to a private bank account in Switzerland. Nor does it give them the right to have murderous bands of thugs terrorising their own people.
    and where does Astro, or anybody else on the forum, take a different view?

    There comes a time when at a national level you have to stop feeling sorry for yourself, stop blaming others, and start taking ownership for making things better since guess what, that is the only way things will get better.
    but if you do not understand how things got to be so fouled up there is a good chance that the actions you take will leave them fouled up in a different way. I live in hope, but not belief, that the lessons will be applied in Iraq.

    ... That time is long past in much of the post-colonial world and the trendy lefty view that we should all engage in some post-colonial self-flagellation for the sins of our great-grandfathers only prolongs the misery for millions of people that are oppressed by their own kind!...
    We have to learn. In a power vacuum the unscrupulous have the advantage.
    ---------
    Interesting that Astro also siezed on Pakistan.
    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    We must be twins bigdjiver.

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    Re: Freedom of speech?

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    And why would you back someone who was recommended by those you kicked out?

    You kicked them out to take back what you wanted.

    So come up with a plan... In the absence of a plan.... be really silly and go with "the oppressors that you kicked out" plan.

    Get real, independance was wanted. Independance was given.
    Zimbabwean might know the details of the handover, but I do know a black Zimbawean who had to seek political asylum in Britain in the late 70's, so not everyone wanted Mugabe.

    He is still here, and has been unable to return yet.


    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    We have the Romans to thank for much of our colonial expertise. As well as their own massive contribution they wrote down, collected and preserved the colonial expertise that went before. One reason our Public Schools taught Latin just so that our diplomats and generals could learn from them. They learned from experts.
    Mugabe was at Oxford. Need we say more?

    What have the Roman's ever done for us?

    Well, there were the roads they built so the centurians could exert control.

    Also Hadrian's Wall to keep out the Scots.

    How come Scotland was not a Roman colony?
    India was one nation under the British, but split into three when we left, with massive issues over borders, resulting in war and revolt. I remember the pathetic streams of refugees fleeing south from Muslim Pakistan, passing an equally patheit stream of Muslims fleeing north from oppression in some parts of India.
    Ghandi was dead set against the idea, but no one would listen.
    Last edited by Astro; 13th-April-2009 at 07:24 PM.

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    Re: Freedom of speech?

    You do have to love the forum.

    BigD, glad to see that chivalry is not dead. I still struggle to understand what either Astro or yourself have posted in this thread. Not much point arguing things piece by piece when some of the statements seem to be based on very little substance. That is fine though, it's what freedom of speech is all about!

    For instance, Mugabe did one year at Oxford I understand so he is hardly Oxford-educated (I think from memory he did most of his education in prison - maybe my mate Daryl from Zimbabwe could comment). And even if Mugabe had graduated from Oxford you're not seriously supporting the idea that their syllabus includes corruption, intimidation and all the other ills that we see being practised in modern Zimbabwe. Or is it not Mugabe's fault, are we to believe that he's been dealt a bad hand through a twisted colonial education that has made him the monster he is today?

    India might have been one geography prior to 1947 but it was far from a united country. For a start as well as the British Raj there were hundreds of native states. Then add to the mix the tensions between Hindu and Muslim. The partition into India and Pakistan was one of the bloodiest in history no doubt, and very few in the colonial administration wanted this, but frankly after 6 years of war we were bankrupt and exhausted and simply had very little real influence. Gandhi might have been against it, but the Muslim League were determined on partition and had this not happened in 1947 it would more than likely have happened within a few years with much the same bloodshed. Maps are redrawn all of the time, and often with large loss of life for civilians.

    The comments about seeking retribution from Alexander the Great, Egypt and the Romans were ironic. Just like those empires there are lasting good effects from the British Empire, as well as negative aspects. I just do not subscribe to the 'British Jackboot' theory, we did far more to build the local population's ability to govern itself than France or other equivalent powers of the time. And since when we left we often did so at the point of an AK47 I suggest that many of these countries dealt themselves whatever hand they are currently playing with now. Also, the problem with perpetuating the idea that people have dealt you an unfair hand is that is discourages you taking ownership for your own destiny (speaking as an engineer and not a liberal history scholar)

    So, happy to have freedom of speech but it would be good if it was based on a little more solid foundation..

    Oh and the Romans never quite managed to subdue the Scots. They tried many times of course

    Agent 000
    Licensed to Dance

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    Re: Freedom of speech?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agente Secreto View Post
    ... Stuff...
    The new Managing Director found two envelopes on his desk. One was marked "Only to be opened in dire circumstances" and signed by the previous MD, as was the second. That was marked "Only open if things get dire again."

    Unfortunately things wnt from shakey to desperate, and the new MD opened the first letter. All it said was "Blame me".

    That worked quite well for a while, but, after a brief upturn things went bad again.

    The second letter, also brief, said "Write two letters ...."

    Also, the problem with perpetuating the idea that people have dealt you an unfair hand is that is discourages you taking ownership for your own destiny (speaking as an engineer and not a liberal history scholar)

    So, happy to have freedom of speech but it would be good if it was based on a little more solid foundation..
    Engineers tend to build using contemporary science. Did I read somewhere that less bridges built by liberal history scholars have failed than those built by engineers? Perhaps something to do with foundations?

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