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Thread: Is MJ a Swing dance (Does the music define the dance?)

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    Is MJ a Swing dance (Does the music define the dance?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    If you know the dance teacher then you know they dance Modern Jive and NOT swing ????? So why label them as swing dancers

    BTW it is a great photo and they both look fab, but it would be nice if they were 'labelled' as modern jive dancers
    IMHO Modern Jive is a swing dance. As a purist you'd need to do a swing dance to swing music. If you jive or modern jive to swing music you are probably doing a swing dance? Does a swing dance stop being a swing dance if you do that same dance to music that is not swung? If a dance is disqualified as a swing dance because you can do it to music that is not swing you'd have to disqualify Lindy Hop as a swing dance because you can do it to any fast music.

    You need to clearly define what a swing dance is before you can say that Modern Jive is not a swing dance.

    In a still photo you have no idea what music was playing when the picture was taken. So you have to assume that the label is correct. However, it would be more specific to label them Modern Jive dancers as that was the event the dancers were attending when the picture was taken.

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    Re: Famous with out consent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    IMHO Modern Jive is a swing dance. As a purist you'd need to do a swing dance to swing music. If you jive or modern jive to swing music you are probably doing a swing dance? Does a swing dance stop being a swing dance if you do that same dance to music that is not swung? If a dance is disqualified as a swing dance because you can do it to music that is not swing you'd have to disqualify Lindy Hop as a swing dance because you can do it to any fast music.

    You need to clearly define what a swing dance is before you can say that Modern Jive is not a swing dance.
    Well - as a purist, I believe that MJ is most certainly not a swing dance. Nor is modern WCS.

    It's a tricky area though, yes. Pete Loggins, who is something of an expert on swing dance history, will tell you about the old-timers' view that 'the music defines the dance'. They maintained this to the extent (and this is a real life example he gave) that a group of people dancing pure Charleston moves to swing music would have told you they weren't dancing Charleston - they were dancing swing. Partly because the Charleston rhythms are quite different, so the dance had taken on that aspect, and had a different feel from standard Charleston.

    The way I see it, Lindy is in many ways a toolkit for dancing to many different kinds of swing music - it gives you the footwork, the structure and the dance techniques to make the most of swing music. If I'm dancing Lindy to a non-swing track, it isn't really Lindy anymore (even though I'll often claim it is) - it's generally changed in feel and footwork enough that that swing feel is gone, and replaced by the style of the current music.

    Nowadays, when I dance 'MJ', it's not really MJ, and it's not exactly Lindy - I'll use a Lindy lead, Lindy improvisations, and some Lindy moves - but in essence it's just a hybrid of styles warped to fit the music as best I can.

    One needs to bear in mind that the swing dance / music partnership is unusual. Not only did the swing dances evolve to suit the music, but the music evolved to suit the dancers - so they are far more entwined each other than in the case of many dance styles. The only other major example that I know of where this happened is AT.
    Last edited by straycat; 14th-January-2008 at 02:56 PM.

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    Re: Famous with out consent?

    I've moved these two posts above from a thread where they were off-topic, to a new one where they might receive more attention.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Famous with out consent?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    Well - as a purist, I believe that MJ is most certainly not a swing dance. Nor is modern WCS.

    It's a tricky area though, yes. Pete Loggins, who is something of an expert on swing dance history, will tell you about the old-timers' view that 'the music defines the dance'. [...]
    If the music define the dance, is Modern Jive a Jive dance, as it's not often danced to Jive music?
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Famous with out consent?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    Well - as a purist, I believe that MJ is most certainly not a swing dance. Nor is modern WCS.
    You say this but the rest of you post proves that you are not anything like a purist

    Especially this bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    Nowadays, when I dance 'MJ', it's not really MJ, and it's not exactly Lindy - I'll use a Lindy lead, Lindy improvisations, and some Lindy moves - but in essence it's just a hybrid of styles warped to fit the music as best I can.
    So, as a non-purist, do you still think MJ is not a swing dance?

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    Re: Is MJ a Swing dance (Does the music define the dance?)

    There's a good debate on the MJDA forum about this topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    If the music define the dance,
    Yes, I think it does - well, it provides a structure for the dance.

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    is Modern Jive a Jive dance, as it's not often danced to Jive music?
    What's Jive music? Ballroom Jive, Rock 'n Roll?

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    Re: Famous with out consent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    You say this but the rest of you post proves that you are not anything like a purist
    ...
    So, as a non-purist, do you still think MJ is not a swing dance?
    Aren't I? OK - so as a non-purist *scratches head* I believe that MJ is definitely not a swing dance.

    There you go....

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    Re: Famous with out consent?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    If the music define the dance, is Modern Jive a Jive dance, as it's not often danced to Jive music?
    I'd argue there is no such thing as "jive music" but their clearly IS "swing music". Jive is not a swing dance if you go by music, and if you go buy historical roots then nearly everything is a swing dance .

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    Re: Famous with out consent?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    Aren't I? OK - so as a non-purist *scratches head* I believe that MJ is definitely not a swing dance....

    If Modern Jive is a swing dance, why is it that most Modern Jivers find dancing to what they call 'lindy music' very difficult

    On my list I separate dance events as swing (which includes Lindy & WCS) MJ and R'n'R as I have found dancers prefer this .......

    Also, I made a comment about the music at the NYE dance I went to as I was a little disappointed there wasn't more swing music ??? I was told (on this forum) that the dancers were predomently MJ dancers ........

    AND.......... why are there so many complaints about WCS music - not enough for the swing dancers and too much for the MJ dancers ............

    Technically, yes the music should denote the dance and yes, technically I suppose MJ is a swing dance, but in reality it is not ..........


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    Re: Is MJ a Swing dance (Does the music define the dance?)

    Modern Jive IS dancing?

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    Re: Is MJ a Swing dance (Does the music define the dance?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    Modern Jive IS dancing?
    Depends on who is doing it

    (but for most of us, yes)

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    Re: Is MJ a Swing dance (Does the music define the dance?)

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    If the music define the dance, ...
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Yes, I think it does - well, it provides a structure for the dance.
    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    ... is Modern Jive a Jive dance, as it's not often danced to Jive music?
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    What's Jive music? Ballroom Jive, Rock 'n Roll?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    I'd argue there is no such thing as "jive music" but their clearly IS "swing music". Jive is not a swing dance ...
    So the question is then, if "the music defines the dance", what music then defines Modern Jive?

    I've seen MJ dancers dance to Swing, Tango, Cha-cha, Waltz (!), Disco, and lots of other types of dance music.

    I've seen Tango and Cha-cha done to modern pop music.

    In what way does these choices of music define the dance?
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Is MJ a Swing dance (Does the music define the dance?)

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    So the question is then, if "the music defines the dance", what music then defines Modern Jive?
    4/4 time, tempo range roughly, what, 120 - 150 BPM, something like that?

    MJ isn't really associated with a type of dance, to be honest - that's a weakness in my view. But then, neither is WCS AFAIK.

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    Re: Is MJ a Swing dance (Does the music define the dance?)

    I don't know that much about what I think of as 'hardcore' swing dances (e.g. Lindy, Charleston), so could anyone enlighten me as to how the 'swing' rhythmn (i.e. the 1 an 2 an 3 an 4, listen to the high-hats etc) is reflected in the dance? Or is it not?

    Because that's what I think of as the defining feature of swing music, so it seems to me that a swing dance should incorperate that somehow, which MJ doesn't (well MJ lessons don't anyway).

    So I'd say that, if swing dances do reflect the swing rhythm, then MJ is not a swing dance. You can dance it to swing music but it's not a swing dance.

    Of course, that relies on my assumption that swing dances use swing rhythm being correct, and that I have a wide enough experience of MJ (ask me in 10 years).

    Dan

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    Re: Is MJ a Swing dance (Does the music define the dance?)

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    4/4 time, tempo range roughly, what, 120 - 150 BPM, something like that?
    120-150? You must know some fairly unadventurous DJs.....

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    Re: Is MJ a Swing dance (Does the music define the dance?)

    I'm not so sure its as much to do with the music as it with the motions of the dance - after all, aren't we told that we can "Ceroc to any kind of music?"

    I think there is a common perception amongst Lindy dancers that Swing is very different to MJ and Lucky summed it up well at a class in Blackpool explaining that Swing is dancing with very much a downwards motion into the ground with weight on heels - and bums out! (and therefore a greater exaggeration of bending of the knees) - whilst in MJ we tend to dance "upwards" with our weight more on toes and everything tucked in (except super-sexy-spare-arm of course "I'm a little teapot"... ).

    Another way of looking at the difference is picking up on a comment from another thread which argues the difference between Blues vs. "slow MJ". Applying the above logic, Blues is a "swing" dance (which computes - it works well to swing music and the weight is grounded and moves down and in rather than out and up) and slow MJ is just what is say on the tin - not Blues and not swing!

    But whilst not being into WCS, I'm perceive it be more akin to MJ than early Jive/Swing and if its called "Swing" surely it is...? Perhaps the confusion is over the term "jive" which MJ and Swing both claim to be as opposed to "swing"?

    Re Swing/Lindy music I recall at Beach Boogie some of the MJ only folk really struggling to dance to some of the music aimed at the Lindy Hoppers and vice versa. Now bearing in mind Lindy can more or less be danced to the entire evolution of Swing music - from ragtime through to rock and roll and beyond (oh yes, it possible to LH to Soft Cell's Tainted Love!!) - where does that leave MJ in the debate? On the flip side I am hearing a lot more of the Rat Pack style swing music at Ceroc venues and loving it! Not sure my leaders are "lovin' it" quite so much when it inspires me to slip in the odd triplestep & Lindy styling...

    Out of interest I was listening recently to a couple of original Rock'n'Roll Jivers (1950's teenagers) who were complaining that Ballroom Jive holds little of the original movement and passion of the original jive, is a very sterile form and not worthy of being called jive! (oo-er saucers of milk all round!).

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    Re: Is MJ a Swing dance (Does the music define the dance?)

    Hi Miss Molly and welcome!

    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Molly View Post
    I'm not so sure its as much to do with the music as it with the motions of the dance - after all, aren't we told that we can "Ceroc to any kind of music?"
    Yeah, but that's what we call a "lie". Well, 2 lies actually in that Ceroc's not a dance... Anyway, I'd be impressed if anyone could do MJ to DiSarli, for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Molly View Post
    I think there is a common perception amongst Lindy dancers that Swing is very different to MJ and Lucky summed it up well at a class in Blackpool explaining that Swing is dancing with very much a downwards motion into the ground with weight on heels - and bums out! (and therefore a greater exaggeration of bending of the knees) - whilst in MJ we tend to dance "upwards" with our weight more on toes and everything tucked in (except super-sexy-spare-arm of course "I'm a little teapot"... ).
    Hmmm, very interesting. Yes, "pure" MJ generally should be balls-of-the-feet, I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    120-150? You must know some fairly unadventurous DJs.....
    Nah, I just don't actually care enough to find out more accurate figures.

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    Re: Is MJ a Swing dance (Does the music define the dance?)

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post

    MJ isn't really associated with a type of dance, to be honest - that's a weakness in my view.
    It's a bonus IMO.

    Isn't Swing differentiated by the little skip?

    I find it hard to know whether the lead is going to lead a skip or not.

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    Re: Is MJ a Swing dance (Does the music define the dance?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Molly View Post
    I'm not so sure its as much to do with the music as it with the motions of the dance - after all, aren't we told that we can "Ceroc to any kind of music?"

    I think there is a common perception amongst Lindy dancers that Swing is very different to MJ and Lucky summed it up well at a class in Blackpool explaining that Swing is dancing with very much a downwards motion into the ground with weight on heels - and bums out! (and therefore a greater exaggeration of bending of the knees) - whilst in MJ we tend to dance "upwards" with our weight more on toes and everything tucked in (except super-sexy-spare-arm of course "I'm a little teapot"... ).

    On the flip side I am hearing a lot more of the Rat Pack style swing music at Ceroc venues and loving it! Not sure my leaders are "lovin' it" quite so much when it inspires me to slip in the odd triplestep & Lindy styling...
    More Rat Pack please DJ's.

    Out of interest I was listening recently to a couple of original Rock'n'Roll Jivers (1950's teenagers) who were complaining that Ballroom Jive holds little of the original movement and passion of the original jive, is a very sterile form and not worthy of being called jive! (oo-er saucers of milk all round!).
    It's watered down at Ceroc as a lot of moves are ariels and others like where the follow is pulled through the lead's legs on her bum are pretty dangerous. forgot the names.

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    Re: Famous with out consent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    I'd argue there is no such thing as "jive music" but their clearly IS "swing music". Jive is not a swing dance if you go by music, and if you go buy historical roots then nearly everything is a swing dance .
    Ultimately it all goes back to Lindy which was danced to jazz. People seem perplexed about Ceroc/Leroc/MJ not being 'suitable' for swing. Maybe that is because MJ developed during the disco era and all that mattered was that the song should have a strong, heavy beat. Its predecessor, Jive was danced to rock'n'roll which tended to be too fast.

    I made an attempt at helping to define a dance in terms of its music on this page of my website. Overview of Swing dance through the 20th century

    Hope it helps. The website is currently under re-construction but you should still find this page.

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