Poll - age of Ceroc Goers

[Bubble]

Could you explain what's negative about having lots of older folk, exactly?

I'm sure this has been discussed before. In fact, I think we discussed an Oz or NZ venue which has an upper age limit.

Anyway, here's what I think, and this is an observation rather than a criticism:

In my experience, MJ nights can often fall into one of two categories with respect to age distribution.

1. A very high proportion of older dancers, and very few, if any youngsters, with many of the younger ones only coming because their mum does.

2. A wide range of ages with no significant dominance in any age bracket.

In recent years I'd say the proportion of venues in category 1 has, if anything, increased.

Now, this is probably going to be controversial:

For category 1 - I'm pretty sure a lot of young people walk through the door, see nothing but people their parents age dancing and never come back. None of them want to do 'dad-dancing' and so the age distribution becomes more and more skewed each year because the youngsters rarely stay and the oldies get older and never leave.

For category 2 - Young people feel comfortable in the presence of other young people and so the age distribution remains fairly balanced. For venues in this category I think a 'critical mass' of young people is required to maintain the situation, if too many young people leave then the age distribution can move terminally towards category 1.

Obviously there's other factors such as city-centre vs urban venues and also the fact that older people are now remaining active for much longer.

[Prian]

For category 1 - I'm pretty sure a lot of young people walk through the door, see nothing but people their parents age dancing and never come back.

According to the poll the main age group is 20-40. How young are these young people and how young are their parents?

[David Bailey]

Could you explain what's negative about having lots of older folk, exactly?

They are The Root Of All Evil.

Running around the place (admittedly slowly), displaying their rampant oldness, no respect for their youngers... I think they should all be banned.

[Ghost]

Could you explain what's negative about having lots of older folk, exactly?

Actually that's kinda the reason I started the poll in the first place. I wanted to get an idea of how long I could plausibly carry on doing Ceroc for. The sudden drop off after 60 is a bit worrying...

Having said that I know other hobbies that started off with a bunch of young 'uns and gradually changed as we all got older (eg more disposable income but less free time).

Ceroc and indeed tango (where it appears you can go on forever) are both something I hope to be enjoying for many years to come

[philsmove]

[QUOTE=Ghost;585171. The sudden drop off after 60 is a bit worrying...

:[/QUOTE]
Us "oldies" don't wast time doing pointless polls, we are too busy dancing

[jivecat]

I would like to question the youth-centric view that Tomtom may or may not be taking.

Now, this is probably going to be controversial:

For category 1 - I'm pretty sure a lot of mature people walk through the door, see nothing but people their grandkids' age dancing and never come back. None of them find the inexperience and self-obsession of youth very appealing and fear that they will be discriminated against when it it comes to getting partners. So the numbers at this venue are at risk of being compromised because the grey panthers will not stick around and the yoof are notoriously fickle and uncommited.

For category 2 - Mature people feel comfortable in the presence of other mature people but are also grown-up enough to cope with other age categories. The young people that do attend are happy to just dance and socialise without an undue obsession with finding sexual partners and so the age distribution remains fairly balanced. For venues in this category I think a 'critical mass' of mature people is required to maintain the situation, if too many silver foxes leave then venue numbers terminally decline.

Seriously, I can't think of any reason why venue managers would not want to encourage the grey pound. Younger people are far more likely to dance for a short while then leave. They may quickly lose interest if "the crowd" moves on, making them no better a bet than the older dancers who are regularly dropping dead. Older pople make up the bulk of reliable attendees who are shoring up the profits week in week out. I don't think that the marketing mantra of catching them young necessarily applies. Many of the regular faces at MJ events did not begin dancing until their 30s or 40s and have proved long stayers with lots of money to made from them, so I don't see the need for negative attitudes towards them.

I have to question the view that young is better - because, well, it just ain't. The young are a little bit prettier but in most other respects they are rather uninteresting. I am much happier at venues where the majority are over 35 rather than under, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Running around the place (admittedly slowly), displaying their rampant oldness, no respect for their youngers...

I'm doing my best. Are you ready to join in yet?

[David Bailey]

Seriously, I can't think of any reason why venue managers would not want to encourage the grey pound.

Playing devil's advocate here, I can think of a couple of commercial possibiilities:

1. If you think you may be losing out more custom from discouraging young people, than you're gaining from attracting the older crowd. This might be an issue in some central urban venues, which traditionally attract a younger crowd.
2. Longevity (no pun intended). In theory, if you get a dancer at 20, he / she may stick with you for decades. If you get a dancer at 60, you're only likely to have his / her business for a few years.

Admittedly, I don't think either of those reasons hold water, but they might be justifications.

Possibly, some people have a fear of the image of Modern Jive turning into a pensioner's tea dance activity - i.e. one where the image is permanently associated with Old People Dancing, and Old People Dancing Is Bad (see current media images of ballroom dancing functions). So there may be the whole 'youth = good marketing' thing going on.

I have to question the view that young is better - because, well, it just ain't. The young are a little bit prettier but in most other respects they are rather uninteresting. I am much happier at venues where the majority are over 35 rather than under, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

To be honest, I'm not too worried about age of attendees. It's simply not a factor in my decisions as to whether to go to a venue.

I'm doing my best. Are you ready to join in yet?

Blimey, I've been an oldie at heart for 25 years or more.

[Ghost]

I have to question the view that young is better - because, well, it just ain't.

I believe the correct response is

The young are a little bit prettier

A cynical person might point out that if you run a venue and are going to have to dance with at least some of the customers, it might be desirable if they were young and pretty. If you're just going to dance and not going to talk to them, it doesn't really matter how interesting they are...

Plus you want a pool of young pretty people to choose from for demos.

Having said that the speed of songs in Ceroc has slowed down noticeably. Bouncy Ceroc has become smooth Ceroc. Now non-slotted Ceroc is becoming slotted Ceroc (much easier to just walk up and down a line in your old age!) so maybe Ceroc is catering for the grey pound in more subtle ways.

Ceroc also seems to attract quite a few young women who prefer older men and indeed quite a few older women who prefer younger men (and vice versa) so a mix of ages probably keeps everyone happy

[Double Trouble]

Seriously, I can't think of any reason why venue managers would not want to encourage the grey pound. Younger people are far more likely to dance for a short while then leave.

You definitely have something there. At Just Jivin' the over 60's get in for £3, the rest of us have to pay £6.

I would say that almost all of the folk that go are pensioners and most of them are regulars I've seen going for years and years, unlike, say, me who goes for a few weeks, gets bored and disappears for 6 months.

I love it there though...lots of interesting, friendly and witty old farts who keep me busy on the dance floor all night. Some of them can even dance a bit.

[Bubble]

perhaps Ceroc could include the occasional tiny photo of a carefully vetted crinkly in their marketing bumph?

I'm now imagining a photo of John Major and Edwina Currie doing Ceroc. It's not doing it for me!

We were only talking about this last week at the 'older' venue I crew at.

We're struggling to get new people through the door as younger people come once but are put off by the fact that apart from crew & 2 very young girls who come with their parents, the youngest people are probably late 40s. To keep a venue atmosphere and encourage new people to come along, there needs to be a good mix of ages otherwise a venue could start to stagnate, especially if you get a proportion of the 'older' dancers who sit in small groups chatting all evening rather than mixing and getting up to dance. Even as crew it's sometimes hard to persuade them to dance (despite the fact they say they enjoy the music!)

I also dance Salsa, which often seems to attract younger people than MJ. Occasionally someone I know from Salsa turns up at MJ to see what it's like. They don't usually come back. Of the few times I've seen them at Salsa and asked them if they're giving MJ another go they always say 'No', when I ask why the answer is usually along the lines of 'everyone's really old'. It also happens the other way around, I've known a MJ dancer in their forties who tried Salsa and didn't go back because 'Salsa is only for young, pretty people'.

At the moment, Ceroc advertising seems to be falling between two stools. They are not accurately representing the product they are selling, so young people turn up and may find it not to their taste, while older people who are a more suitable target audience given the demographics are not being drawn in. Also, I'd have thought fostering a committed customer base of mature people with plenty of disposable income to spend on a Ceroc-habit would be as worthwhile as courting the impoverished and fickle youth.

Seriously - the marketing imagery that Ceroc use has not changed much in a decade. It's putting me off, for one. Is it really working for you?

They want to market it as a fun and sexy dance. Now I refer you back to my earlier comment regarding a former Prime Minister.

According to the poll the main age group is 20-40. How young are these young people and how young are their parents?

I think the poll is quite possibly skewed. Young people tend to use the internet more than older people.

They are The Root Of All Evil.

Running around the place (admittedly slowly), displaying their rampant oldness, no respect for their youngers... I think they should all be banned.

Yes, but they're about to pay for having the cheek to survive to retirement age.

.............Younger people are far more likely to dance for a short while then leave. They may quickly lose interest if "the crowd" moves on, making them no better a bet than the older dancers who are regularly dropping dead............

Young people often learn much more readily than older people, because they're either still in full time education or not long out of it. Then they get bored and try a different dance/activity. Of course, another explanation is that they are younger, prettier and get asked for more dances..........

A cynical person might point out that if you run a venue and are going to have to dance with at least some of the customers, it might be desirable if they were young and pretty. If you're just going to dance and not going to talk to them, it doesn't really matter how interesting they are...

A bit like marrying someone with beauty rather than brains, on the basis that you'll spend a lot longer looking at them than talking with them.

much easier to just walk up and down a line in your old age!

Maybe it's to ease the transition from Line Dancing to MJ?

Ceroc also seems to attract quite a few young women who prefer older men and indeed quite a few older women who prefer younger men (and vice versa) so a mix of ages probably keeps everyone happy

A few years ago I attended a MJ class at which a girl in her late teens was taking money on the door. After a few weeks I asked whether she danced herself, her response, 'No way! All the men are really old and creepy!'

[jivecat]

I'm really impressed with your thorough reading of this thread, Bubble. I also notice I'm at grave risk of repeating myself, must be my age.

I'm now imagining a photo of John Major and Edwina Currie doing Ceroc. It's not doing it for me!

He got rave reviews from Edwina. "A skilled and considerate lover" is wot she said. I've always looked at him with new eyes since then.
And how many 21-year olds would you say that about?

A few years ago I attended a MJ class at which a girl in her late teens was taking money on the door. After a few weeks I asked whether she danced herself, her response, 'No way! All the men are really old and creepy!'

Promising flirt-objects fom my point of view, then!

[philsmove]

One of the things I absolutely love about Ceroc is no one seems to care about your age
At my class I know more than 1.33% are over 60, but no one cares
Only three things are important, smile, shower and don’t refuse a dance
What car you drive, does not matter
What part of town you come, from does not matter
How much you earn, does not matter
What you do for a living, does not matter
And let be honest, how well you dance, does not matter that much ether

[Twirly]

The thing that those who are young and love dancing but have issues with older dancers should remember is that one day (and sooner than you think) you will be those "older" dancers.

So since what goes around comes around, don't be too harsh...

[Gav]

Some of them can even dance a bit.

What car you drive, does not matter
What part of town you come, from does not matter
How much you earn, does not matter
What you do for a living, does not matter

Ahhh, so that's what I'm doing wrong

[Trouble]

Cerocers are just not that fussy.

Scarface was relieved to find that out when he first started going as the last club he went too he was rudely shouted at by a young youth...

"GRANDAD, WHERES YA SLIPPERS"

he never went again.

[Bubble]

I'm really impressed with your thorough reading of this thread, Bubble.

Really? I've only read the most recent two or three pages of posts.

Surely you weren't being sarcastic?

He got rave reviews from Edwina. "A skilled and considerate lover" is wot she said. I've always looked at him with new eyes since then.

Will somebody please pass the mind-bleach.

And how many 21-year olds would you say that about?

Most 21-year olds are probably more focused on quantity, rather than quality. When they get a bit older and can't keep it up all night they have a reason to start concentrating on quality.

Promising flirt-objects fom my point of view, then!

Promising or challenging?

One of the things I absolutely love about Ceroc is no one seems to care about your age
At my class I know more than 1.33% are over 60, but no one cares
Only three things are important, smile, shower and don’t refuse a dance
What car you drive, does not matter
What part of town you come, from does not matter
How much you earn, does not matter
What you do for a living, does not matter
And let be honest, how well you dance, does not matter that much ether

I love all of that too..........................

The thing that those who are young and love dancing but have issues with older dancers should remember is that one day (and sooner than you think) you will be those "older" dancers.

So since what goes around comes around, don't be too harsh...

...................and I love dancing with people of all ages

But the thing is, I don't like attending events where the age distribution is highly skewed, whether that be to the younger, middling, or the older end. Does that make me ageist? Is it possible to be discriminatory when you prefer maximum diversity and an even distribution?

I have exactly the same approach to housing, I don't want to live in a road full of families, singletons, childless couples, pensioners etc. etc. I'd much rather live in a road which has an even balance of all of those types of people. Is that wrong?

[jivecat]

One of the things I absolutely love about Ceroc is no one seems to care about your age

Yes, which is why an attempt to court a picky youth market might be a problem - because, apparently, they will care about people's age.

Surely you weren't being sarcastic?

Sarcastic, moi? In a long thread my attention span only lasts for a few posts so anyone who goes back further than that is a higher life form, AFAIC. And don't call me Shirley.

Will somebody please pass the mind-bleach.

Too late! Anyway, why do you find the thought of someone mature and not conventionally attractive having successful sex so disturbing? Are you planning to die before you get old? Or just take a vow of chastity on your
40th birthday?

[philsmove]

But my point is that the over 40s who comprise a good proportion of Ceroc's customers are ruthlessly expunged from all Ceroc literature

But this often the case with all form advertising, look at expensive sports car promotional material, it rarely features the grey haired men who can actually afford them. Advertising for Nikon high end cameras never features , the sort of peron you find at a proffesional photo trade show,

[jivecat]

But this often the case with all form advertising, look at expensive sports car promotional material, it rarely features the grey haired men who can actually afford them. Advertising for Nikon high end cameras never features , the sort of peron you find at a proffesional photo trade show,

Yes, up to a point. But often they put representatives of the target group into the photographic material, otherwise we'd be too stupid to know we were supposed to buy them. We have to be able to identify with the character in the advert. The exception is when they're trying to sell us an aspirational product, like using young women to sell hair dye for greying hair.

It could well be that the young things in the Ceroc literature could discourage as many people as they attract. The message will be - "I'll be too old to go to that, I wouldn't fit in."

[Twirly]

Yes, up to a point. But often they put representatives of the target group into the photographic material, otherwise we'd be too stupid to know we were supposed to buy them. We have to be able to identify with the character in the advert. The exception is when they're trying to sell us an aspirational product, like using young women to sell hair dye for greying hair.

It could well be that the young things in the Ceroc literature could discourage as many people as they attract. The message will be - "I'll be too old to go to that, I wouldn't fit in."

Am not quite sure about that (though I wish it was true).

As I'm not working right now, I've been watching some daytime TV. There's a certain advert where a furniture company is "sponsoring" the programme. The chairs are clearly the sort aimed at old folks (usually seen in old folks homes, easy to get out of), but the men and women demonstrating them are probably 40 years younger than their target audience. And I had to point out to someone recently that the "comfy trousers" in the weekend supplement he was so admiring had an elasticated waist and were probably aimed at a chap at least 20 years older than him

People don't want to admit that they are as old as they are, so products/services aimed at a younger audience are likely to appeal. There are a few exceptions, such as Jane Fonda advertising moisturiser