What are your views on Sabotage?
Leaders: Do you enjoy being sabotaged occasionally? Does it annoy you that you are no longer (albeit temporarily) in control? Does it put you off and ruin your train of thought/flow?
Followers: Do you ever use sabotage? If not, why not? Would you if you knew more about it/knew more moves etc?
Or whatever else you want to say on the matter!
I have learnt 2 sabotage routines, and have only taken away one move I can manage to use in freestyle ... some of the moves seem to require the lead to know that they're about to be sabotaged (eg I learnt one where you 'sabotage' a man-spin, except the man can't actually try to execute a proper man-spin as he would in normal freestyle, because he's not supposed to turn or the woman can't get into the right position!). Some of the other moves (at least the ones I've learnt) seem quite complicated and I just don't think I'd be able to carry them out on some unsuspecting man (one was an octopuss sabotage that involved all sorts of complicated leg work - I'm sure I'd just end up kicking him!).
I do enjoy using my one little move though, and have taken quite a few guys unawares. Most seem to enjoy it (at least, they smile or have a laugh and none have yet vocalised any complaints!), although some seem to think they've done something wrong, and one even asked me how he could lead it(!). I now 'sabotage' the ones that are getting used to it by NOT doing it when they think I'm going to! I don't use it on just anyone though - I do try to assess their capability and will only do it to someone I think will 'cope'.
I did do it to one of my teachers once and he liked it so much he taught it in one of his classes a few weeks later (a class I, sadly, wasn't at!)
Errr ..... yes, no and yes!!!!Originally Posted by Frankie_4711
I remember the first time that I was sabotaged, on a first move at Stockport. It so threw me, that I had to resort to an eight beat arm-jive before I regained my composure!!!
Has there been a poll on this yet?? If not, maybe it's time for one!!
Last edited by Magic Hans; 30th-August-2006 at 06:36 PM. Reason: Addendum ..... errrrr ..... added!!
I love it. Throwsthe next 2 or three moves i had planned out of the window. And it sure makes me pay a lot more attention to the partner.
I wish it was taught more often in the classes. I've only ever seen it in the fun routines they teach as ice breakers in the freestyles.
Dangerous is all I can say ... and have said that before.
Take the time when you are given and don't risk dislocated shoulders and twisted fingers by trying to get the better of the lead. You are not only risking your help but also that of the lead. I personally care for your health and even more for mine.
I mostly disagree with this. Dangerous, yes, if any manner of forcing or holding is happening, ie where the lead is using force or the follow is holding.Dangerous is all I can say ... and have said that before.
Take the time when you are given and don't risk dislocated shoulders and twisted fingers by trying to get the better of the lead. You are not only risking your help but also that of the lead. I personally care for your health and even more for mine.
It situations where both lead and follow is light, I can see no problem.
It's Evil Beyond Words.
No, Yes, Yes.
Transfer of control should be, well, controlled - it should well-signalled both at the start and the end of the transfer.
Surprise change-of-leads are just plain silly - they may be fun in a muckabout kind of way, but so is pulling a funny face, that doesn't make it dancing. To me it's in the same league as the "kiss-on-the-tummy" thing discussed elsewhere - some people like it, some don't.
David The Grumpy.
I've caused a major injury to a partner just leading a return with a slightly-unexpected twist. I've been dancing quite a long time, and she's a highly-experienced Ceroc teacher - so there's no such thing as totally safe.
But my concern is mainly with dance flow...
as a relative beginner if a woman took control from me and sabotaged the move that I was suggesting she do It would probably throw me quite considerably.. and would probably end up doing the in and out or side to side until I could think of what to do next. or until the dance ended.. which ever came first (probably the latter.. I'm not a fast thinker when it comes to moves)
Ah, this is the crux of it. You are suggesting that she dances, or inviting your partner to dance, a certain move. She considers and decides that something else would be more appropriate and leads it. This may throw you out of sync. Or it may not. Depends....
Sabotage Treacherous action to defeat or hinder a cause or an endeavor; deliberate subversion
I sabotage all the time: I lead what the follower expects to be one move and I sabotage them half way through it to do something else. It's part of leading.
It's like leading when the follower isn't following - they are in auto-pilot (or have been taught that in this move you go from A to B to C and reset to D with a step-back-return-step-back.)
Some followers do occasionally sabotage me to lead for a bit, but reacting to the follower doing something I haven't lead so much a part of my dancing that I simply sabotage them back on the next beat. (most of the time unintentonally.)
My thoughts on whether it's good or bad - Dosn't phase me one way or another: I can take the lead back at any point.
It's fine IMO - makes the dance more interesting without the leader having to think too hard.
The main exception is if the lady is doing alot of backleading, and I'm trying to get my lead in early with enhanced firmness. Proving there is a decent contrast between mainly responsive following and the hijack it's great.
I'm cool with a bit of hijacking – just so long as it's for a purpose.
Some of the moves I like have a built-in invitation to do whatever you like now... Some followers like to do there own thing – which can make me look good, others just follow the suggested lead, and others yet ignore the lead and anticipate the move they think I'm leading next.
I'd much rather have a hijacker on my hands than an anticipator.
I'm not keep on elaborate hijacks though that involve the follower leading both herself and me. I like to decide for myself how I'm going to respond to my follower.
Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story
OK. I'm getting confused. (But then again I've had two very tiring evenings and the biggest question taxing my tired brain at the moment is why am I not in bed already?)
By sabotage do you mean taking control of the leading? I don't do that, but I do at times vary my 'degree' of following. I take time to add my creative input into the dance (depending on my partner and how he feels about it). But I don't think that the same as sabotaging? If I'm following, I'm following. I might take time to add in decorations or varing the timing of my follow, but its like a pause in following, not taking control. I think.
Yes. Twice in about ten years I have really enjoyed a sabotage. One was where I was leading a yo-yo and the lady used her left hand to push off against my upper arm and do a double spin under my right arm. A justifiable reaction to the surprises I had been springing on her. The other involved a tickle under the chin.
Yes. Too often it ruins the dance. My brain is too tiny to deal with yet another variable. I have just about learned to cope with the lady backleading, or taking the initiative at a neutral point, or even "maypoling" (just stand there and I'll dance around you). I am still learning how to cope with the situation where when I have spent three moves formulating a favourite bit of choreography that goes with the music, and lining up the space to perform it, and the lady firmly blocks me and goes into "worm wiggling on fishing line" mode. I react by defensive dancing, and letting the lady have her own way.Does it annoy you that you are no longer (albeit temporarily) in control? Does it put you off and ruin your train of thought/flow?
Because of course the lady would never have a favourite bit of the music that she might enjoy responding to having had the last few partners she danced to that track with completely ignore the music.
I guess it comes down to deciding (as a follow) if you are dancing to a lead and his understanding of the music, or if you are dancing to a piece of music together, inspiring one another.
Improvisation is the lady taking advantage of an invitational lead.
Embellishment is the lady adding something extra whilst still following the lead.
Sabotage is the lady deliberately not following an indication lead.
I like it when the lady improvises or embellishes a lead. Sabotage is a bit different.
1st time
2nd time
3rd time
4th time
That's a helpful distinction, thanks.
So what is varying timing? Eg I might take longer to do a return, slow down and ronde round (if it fits the music, not just for the sake of it). Its not invitational, I'm following the direction of the lead but not the timing, so am I embellishing or sabotaging?
Oh yes she would, and I know she would, and in the last experience I was lining up a first time partner for one of my "Oooh, I liked that" moves leading into an own brand lady invite to play. She had already had two "worm on a line" sessions that she had instigated. It would have been better if she could have managed something a lttle different each time. If someone is going to interrupt they should have something to say, and not repeat themselves. David B has it right.
but the rep gremlin would not let me reward him
Last edited by bigdjiver; 31st-August-2006 at 01:49 AM.
Depends on what's led
Only a few leads actually lead the timeing of a turn* : most it's just raise the hand and expect the follower to turn. On these it's taking advantage of an invitation to turn.
{*only a few leads can lead the timeing of a turn}
Absolutely! I would never use the same sabotage move more than once in any one dance, or even on the same partner too often ... also because it's nice to keep the element of surprise!~SNIP~ It would have been better if she could have managed something a lttle different each time. If someone is going to interrupt they should have something to say, and not repeat themselves. David B has it right.
Exactly why I assess any unknown lead's ability before I try something like that ... any sign of beginnerishness, nervousness, intrepidation, intense concentration or anything else which suggests it may not be welcome and I won't (deliberately!) do something which may throw him ... save it for someone that is more likely to 'appreciate(?)' it
BTW - does not re-taking the lead's hand after a spin and doing a bit of wiggling/walking instead count as sabotage? Or is that just embellishing?
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