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Thread: Lead Signals

  1. #21
    Registered User NZ Monkey's Avatar
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    Re: Lead Signals

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Finally, as if that's not enough bedtime reading, there are also a couple of threads on the MJDA forum discussing this in some details:
    MJDA forum
    and
    MJDA forum

    (I think it's safe to say that those two threads go into enough details to satisfy most people )
    Agreed, and I still stand by my statements in those threads

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    Re: Lead Signals

    Quote Originally Posted by gebandemuishond View Post
    Personally, I always got confused with how to differentiate to my follower that I wanted to do a sway rather than a ceroc/ladyspin.

    ... snip ...

    You mentioned having problems with catapult vs. return.
    I see a common theme here... If you are finding that your ladies are staying on the spot when you are trying to lead a catapult, you're probably worrying too much about their turn - but actually, you need to get them alongside you before you turn them. The key part that might be missing for both the sway and the catapult is leading the first step straight forward, and only once she has started to move would I start to turn her.

    I'd also take issue with the standard script for the basket 'take your left hand over your right, and lead the lady forward' as being in the wrong order. Easier to walk through in a class maybe, but nothing like the way I lead the move now (even in a class, as the ladies try and cross their hand over for me when they think I've not understood)

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Lead Signals

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Fiinally, as if that's not enough bedtime reading, there are also a couple of threads on the MJDA forum discussing this in some details:
    MJDA forum
    and
    MJDA forum

    (I think it's safe to say that those two threads go into enough details to satisfy most people )
    Actually, if the thread on the first link had continued, my next post was going to be an analysis of the period and stability of small oscillations of an off-balance follower. For that matter, there was a lot of bemoaning the lack of actual data for human reaction time, physical force involved in leading, etc.

  4. #24
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    Re: Lead Signals

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Actually, if the thread on the first link had continued, my next post was going to be an analysis of the period and stability of small oscillations of an off-balance follower. For that matter, there was a lot of bemoaning the lack of actual data for human reaction time, physical force involved in leading, etc.
    Lucky escape there, then

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    As the only person on this thread who doesn't teach signals, has taught for years and teaches beginners lessons 3 times a week I can tell you that you don't need signals.

    What you need is a teacher who teaches you how to have a gentle lead - you also need partners who can follow a gentle lead. If you have partners who are waiting for a signal there is a good chance that you will not have a partner who can follow a gentle lead. If you attend classes where they teach signals you will get partners who are looking for signals rather than a gentle lead.

    My advice is to find a class where the teacher does not teach signals.

    My other advice is to consider the advice you are being given on this thread in the light of how much experience they have of teaching beginners. Teaching beginners is the hardest part of teaching: you take someone with no dance experience and get them to dance moves within a 35-45 minute lesson. Teaching moves to people who can already dance is much easier. On this thread you have some excellent advanced teachers, eg. DavidB. And you have some wannabe beginners teachers who have little teaching experience, if any, and have not taught anybody to become an accomplished dancer. Take their advice at your peril

    Of course, you can do signals. And many people do and get by just fine. But you will find that they are like the stablisers on a bike. You need to remove them to progress. The problem is that, by then, those movements will have got into your muscle memory and will be difficult to stop. Remember, it is 10 times as hard to train out a bad habit once established than it is to establish a good habit.

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    Re: Lead Signals

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidB View Post
    Try doing a move using a signal eg Neck Break.

    Do it a few times, and work out what you have to do with your other hand to make the lady do the same movement.

    Then do it without the signal.

    You can now do the move with anyone - not just ladies who know the signal. *That* is the difference.
    Always listen to DavidB

    Quote Originally Posted by tsh View Post
    As to the difference between signals and leads, consider what happens when your partner has her eyes closed.

    Sean
    A good one to practice. - once you have taken on board DavidB's advice, try leading the neck break and also the first move with a partner with her eyes closed...

    Jumble the moves up and see if she follows... If she follows the move you wanted... You are leading

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    As the only person on this thread who doesn't teach signals
    Until now, or maybe an assumption...

    Moving on to the catapult... a top turn, or return, you guide the lady by lifting your hand above her head, with a little motion, to the direction she is being invited to move.
    The catapult I have always said to the guys is a "cricket bowling action" whilst you move forwards. "Bowl the Ladies over"


    The thing to remember Mark, is that you did ask... so you will get some good replies and some average replies, from people with 1 year to 20 years of experience. Some teachers and some wannabies, and some keen dancers who have been where you are now.

    So pick out the good bits, and enjoy.

  7. #27
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    Re: Lead Signals

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    Until now, or maybe an assumption...
    The full quote is below.
    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    As the only person on this thread who doesn't teach signals, has taught for years and teaches beginners lessons 3 times a week I can tell you that you don't need signals.
    It is a bit of an assumption. However, I'm not aware of any other experienced, regular beginners teachers posting on this thread that don't teach signals. Certainly none that are qualified

    I'm quite prepared to let marko come on one of our beginners workshops for free to see how it's done properly. I'm not going to give the date on here as I'd be advertising. However, it's soon. If marko would like to give up a Sunday morning to get up early and travel to the seaside he'd see that signals really aren't needed. Marco, send me a PM if you're interested.

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    Re: Lead Signals

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I'm quite prepared to let marko come on one of our beginners workshops for free to see how it's done properly. I'm not going to give the date on here as I'd be advertising. However, it's soon. If marko would like to give up a Sunday morning to get up early and travel to the seaside he'd see that signals really aren't needed. Marco, send me a PM if you're interested.

    Hey, now THAT is a good offer... See what the forum can do for you!

    I would say - give it a go Marko.

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    Re: Lead Signals

    Quote Originally Posted by people talking about lead/signals
    Long discussion about the differences between leads and signals and the advantages of not teaching signals, plus a bit of stuff about how you shouldn't listen to people who havn't been teaching dance to beginners for the last 100 years because they know jack-all about it
    Quote Originally Posted by marko View Post
    It was a bit of a missed opportunity really because as a newbie I would LOVE to know what these expert ladies want us to do to let them know what is coming and make the partner experience as much fun as possible. Being 6ft 2 and not the most graceful of gods creatures I am always concerned about twisting someones arm or wrist.

    So, to get to the point, how about a definitive Move-Lead signal discussion to enable us beginners to make dancing with us a nicer place to be!

    Compare and contrast the actual question asked with the replies. I think (and I may well be wrong) that Mark was not after a long rant about not teaching signals, that what he was after, in fact, was a useful concrete discussion about what the leader can do to get the follower to do nice things. OK, the thread title may be a little misleading, a beginner may be unaware of the difference between the two (technical) terms*, that should have been cleared up by now, but I really think a lot of you have missed the point... we'll await clarification from Mark...

    Dan

    * I hope I'm not being patronising, slap me if I am

  10. #30
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    Re: Lead Signals

    Quote Originally Posted by gebandemuishond View Post
    Compare and contrast the actual question asked with the replies.
    Fair enough. But we need to be clear about the difference between the two, and why it really matters. It's really not just semantics, it's fundamental to the whole question of "How can I be a good dancer?", and it's a symptom of one of the core problems with learning in the standard Ceroc way. In short, it's important.

    Yes, arguably this thread shouldn't be in "Beginners Corner" - but then one could also argue that it's never too early to learn the fundamentals.

    Quote Originally Posted by gebandemuishond View Post
    I think (and I may well be wrong) that Mark was not after a long rant about not teaching signals, that what he was after, in fact, was a useful concrete discussion about what the leader can do to get the follower to do nice things.
    Again, fair enough - but unfortunately, getting to that point means that you have to do some hard work, and you need to understand some important principles, such as "What is a lead?". And the best way to get the follower - any follower - to do nice things is to provide a nice lead.

    One of the best and worst things about Ceroc is the concept that "anyone can learn to dance in 45 minutes". It's not true. You've got to eat your vegetables before you can have your dessert. And brush your teeth before bedtime. And wash behind your ears. And... hold on, where was I again?

  11. #31
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    Re: Lead Signals

    That all said...
    Quote Originally Posted by marko View Post
    ...as a newbie I would LOVE to know what these expert ladies want us to do to let them know what is coming and make the partner experience as much fun as possible.
    Mmmm. Honestly, it comes back to "provide a good lead". If you do that, everything else comes easily.

    But I'd say some general points to remember are:
    • Lead 4 moves well rather than 40 moves badly
    • Never use force, always invite your partner to move where and how you want to
    • Smile


    Quote Originally Posted by marko View Post
    Being 6ft 2 and not the most graceful of gods creatures I am always concerned about twisting someones arm or wrist.
    If in doubt, use a fingertip hold. If you don't think a move is safe, either don't do it, or ask for some advice from a teacher.

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    Re: Lead Signals

    Quote Originally Posted by gebandemuishond View Post
    Compare and contrast the actual question asked with the replies. I think (and I may well be wrong) that Mark was not after a long rant about not teaching signals, that what he was after, in fact, was a useful concrete discussion about what the leader can do to get the follower to do nice things. OK, the thread title may be a little misleading, a beginner may be unaware of the difference between the two (technical) terms*, that should have been cleared up by now, but I really think a lot of you have missed the point... we'll await clarification from Mark...

    Dan

    * I hope I'm not being patronising, slap me if I am

    Hey Dan

    Spot on. There does seem to be a fallback comment of 'to be a good dancer you must be a good lead'.

    This reminds me of the old phrase '

    To understand recursion first you must understand recursion'.

    What I was hoping for (and did get in some cases, thanks to all for that) was some real world examples of how to convey to a partner (signal/lead/communicate/ask/request/feel/blah) what is coming next in as clear a way as possible so we can both enjoy the experience of moving to the music. By way of an example. My wife and I have a 'pet' routine we do and both know. Probably a dangerous thing to do you may say (anticiaption etc) but we sometimes do this and both really enjoy it just because the moves flow in that 'muscle memory' way and we get that great 'floating on the music' feeling.

    I agree with the comment made earlier about Ceroc claiming you can dance in 45 minutes. You can wobble about and crash into one another but you certainly cant 'dance' in that time. I know I have to be patient and let the experience build, but as was quoted earlier (quite rightly) it is so much easier to learn it right rather than put it right.

    Thanks again for all the info, really interesting. Keep it coming!
    Cheers
    mark

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    Re: Lead Signals

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Yes, arguably this thread shouldn't be in "Beginners Corner" - but then one could also argue that it's never too early to learn the fundamentals.

    Hmm. So where exactly should it be then? Sorry if it has been posted in the wrong place but a question from a beginner (me) about how to carry out basic communication with a partner struck me as being newbie stuff.

    Confused now
    Cheers
    Mark

  14. #34
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    Re: Lead Signals

    Quote Originally Posted by marko View Post
    'to be a good dancer you must be a good lead'.
    Or a good follow

    Quote Originally Posted by marko View Post
    This reminds me of the old phrase '

    To understand recursion first you must understand recursion'.
    Yes, I see what you mean - but good leading isn't the only component of good partner dancing - there's also posture, style, musicality, connection, chemistry and not having hairy shoulders (apparently).

    And, this thread was about leading...

    Quote Originally Posted by marko View Post
    What I was hoping for (and did get in some cases, thanks to all for that) was some real world examples of how to convey to a partner (signal/lead/communicate/ask/request/feel/blah) what is coming next in as clear a way as possible so we can both enjoy the experience of moving to the music.
    The best way of doing this, I think, is to make sure you prepare for the lead in advance of actually doing the lead. This "prep" or "pre-lead" makes it much easier for the follower, who will automatically react to your pre-lead, making the actual move you lead less jerky, feel more smooth, and generally be All Good.

    You will probably learn to pre-lead subcounsciously given enough time - that's why most experienced dancers look smooth in their dancing, they use pre-leads a lot. But it's also something you can and should work on consciously.

    The difference between me and Amir is that he pre-leads stuff a half-second before I do.

    Well, and he's taller. And he's got more hair. And he's better-looking. And he's done dancing professionally. But apart from that...

  15. #35
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    Re: Lead Signals

    Quote Originally Posted by marko View Post
    Hmm. So where exactly should it be then? Sorry if it has been posted in the wrong place but a question from a beginner (me) about how to carry out basic communication with a partner struck me as being newbie stuff.
    David wasn't complaining about where you posted, more than many of the responses are aimed more at intermediate or even advanced dancers.

    Problem is, leading is one of those things where you never stop learning, and it's remarkably hard to look back and put yourself in the mindset of a beginner (at least, I find it hard). So many of the responses are somewhat inappropriate.

    (To continue the programming/recursion analogy, it's as if someone asked "how do you calculate a factorial?" and someone replied with C++ code that used template metaprogramming to create a lookup table of factorials at run-time. Yes, it's a very nice solution, but it's not exactly going to help the person asking the original question).

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    Re: Lead Signals

    Quote Originally Posted by marko View Post
    Hmm. So where exactly should it be then? Sorry if it has been posted in the wrong place but a question from a beginner (me) about how to carry out basic communication with a partner struck me as being newbie stuff.
    Well, the more "technical" discussions tend to get put into Intermediate corner - but I agree, it's never to early to learn the fundamentals, so I'll leave it here.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    (To continue the programming/recursion analogy, it's as if someone asked "how do you calculate a factorial?" and someone replied with C++ code that used template metaprogramming to create a lookup table of factorials at run-time. Yes, it's a very nice solution, but it's not exactly going to help the person asking the original question).
    Geek

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    Re: Lead Signals

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Well, the more "technical" discussions tend to get put into Intermediate corner - but I agree, it's never to early to learn the fundamentals, so I'll leave it here.


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  18. #38
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    Re: Lead Signals

    Quote Originally Posted by marko View Post
    There was also a lot of pretentious stuff about 'just feeling it'
    I'm sorry hun, I really wasn't trying to be pretentious

    but as a lot of people have rightly pointed out, some people use (and rely on) signals, purely because they haven't worked out (been taught) how to lead using 'momentum', 'body alignment' and preps.

    I can understand how all this stuff could sound pretentious to a beginner and I respect your question.

    Sadly i'm hopeless at explaining technical stuff in writing but I often like to help beginners by 'backleading' a move, so they can get the 'feeling'.

    This is very hard for teachers to show from the stage.

    Often i'll know where someone wants me to go next by the end of the previous move, simply because they've set me up right.

    Followers who are more experienced will let themselves go with the momentum but will find it much harder to follow hand signals which are detached from the body, even if they're as clear as a policeman directing the traffic!
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    Re: Lead Signals

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I'm sorry hun, I really wasn't trying to be pretentious

    Hi Lory
    No problem, I didnt mean to sound huffy, it is just that to a newbie all the talk of 'just feeling it' is a step too far. I will be happy when I can just get the moves remembered and carried out without looking like a flailing combine harvester

    I think the main points I have taken from all these very interesting points of view are

    1. It takes time and I am probably expecting too much too soon.
    2. It doesnt work with everyone no matter how good you are (or think you are)
    3. It is to do with feel and that a 'highway code' for Ceroc dance moves isnt likely to help

    Is that a fair summary?

    Cheers
    mark

  20. #40
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    Re: Lead Signals

    Quote Originally Posted by marko View Post
    I think the main points I have taken from all these very interesting points of view are

    1. It takes time and I am probably expecting too much too soon.
    Yep - although you're asking exactly the right questions, if that helps.

    Quote Originally Posted by marko View Post
    2. It doesnt work with everyone no matter how good you are (or think you are)
    As a very very broad generalisation, the better you are, the more will work, with more people.

    Quote Originally Posted by marko View Post
    3. It is to do with feel and that a 'highway code' for Ceroc dance moves isnt likely to help
    Mmmm... Feel is important but I wouldn't worry about trying to develop it.
    As for the highway code, most Ceroc signals are lead-like, but you shouldn't depend on them as the be-all and end-all.

    Quote Originally Posted by marko View Post
    Is that a fair summary?
    4. Smile.

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