Ceroc Competitions - in Oz

[pjfrad]

In latin - the basic is move on the 1 and plant the foot on 2. However, during a song, the hits are on the 1. So they cannot be missed when dancing on beat. However, in ceroc the movement is on the 1 or the start is on the 1 - this is the basic step (as in latin basic step). Ceroc therefore, misses the hits, in songs they are generally on the 1 beat. I have seen ceroc masters miss ever single hit to a latin song because of this (spotlight dances), but recently have seen a couple from Sydney change their count and get the hits on 1. This was one thing when starting to learn latin that really got me hooked. It had direction in the style and footwork, and I was buzzing..............

Is that possibly because the song was designed for latin and not MJ? It's hard to make MJ look good to a cha cha or walse. But then I guess it's hard to make a walse look good to salsa music or a cha cha to work with walse music either....

[Thetruth]

Is that possibly because the song was designed for latin and not MJ? It's hard to make MJ look good to a cha cha or walse. But then I guess it's hard to make a walse look good to salsa music or a cha cha to work with walse music either....

Funny then that they play at ceroc championships Latin songs as has happenned in the finals recently at the Vic champs and last years CA comp? Doesnt make sense??? Santana and Rob Plant (Matchbox 20) had a song that was a slow cha cha beat yet MJ did a routine to it in 2001 or 2002. So its off the mark to say what you have said.............

[TheTramp]

Only 4 couples competed in the masters level at the Australian Victorian champs in July 07.

Actually, there were 6 couples (your name wasn't living up to it's reputation there mate! ). [Nicky & Adrian, John & Christie, Clinton & Emma, Steve & Jayne, Karl & Olivia, Steve & Simone].

Given that 2 of the people running the comp normally compete at Masters level (Deb & Cat), and they wouldn't have entered their own comp, that would have made 8 couples under other circumstances, which would be comparable with (or indeed more than) the numbers at any of the 4 comps I've been to in Australia in the last couple of years at Masters level.

Of the other couples that I know of that are still competing together at Masters level in Oz, Dane & Deanna didn't compete as Dane couldn't afford to make the trip; Jason & Leah were at the Canberra comp the weekend before, and I guess that there's a limit on the number of trips you can make; Peter & Amy (as Peter has said) would have moved up having won the requisite number of advanced places, but they're currently in the UK. I can't think of many other couples who might have been there, but weren't.

A couple in Vic at the Brisbane comp of 2006 have disappeared from the ceroc competition circuit. I believe because they were disappointed in being overlook continually. I, believe in Brisbane they should have placed 2nd or at the least 3rd. But did not place at all. I hope they are still dancing as they were developing a wonderful masculine/feminine style.....the guys name is Allan not sure of his partners name though.

Personally, I wouldn't have had Allan & Anita in the top 3 in Brisbane (nothing wrong with them, I just thought that the other couples in the final all danced better), although, I'm still sure that there must have been something wrong with the judges at that particular comp anyhow!

[David Bailey]

I am not trying to stir trouble, just want to understand the rules governing ceroc in competitions. But I dont seem to be getting any information that states clear rules on footwork.

Funny that.

(i.e. that's because there are no clear rules.)

I think this is important in establishing a credible dance style.

I agree - or at least, it's one of the criteria.

So, obviously, my view is that MJ is not a credible dance style (for whatever value you assign to "credible").

SO what is MJ dance? Can someone explain the style? MJ is confusing compared to other established styles regarding style and footwork. So what is it?

As I said in this post, the only decent definition of MJ I've ever seen is:

Modern Jive is a Lead and Follow Partner dance where movements take multiples of two beats and finish on beats 1 and 3 of music written with 4 beats to the bar

Any other definition I've seen can always have "Yeah, but..." exceptions.

That's it.

[pjfrad]

I had a post here but decided to remove it because it sounded a little to self promoting.

[Thetruth]

Actually, there were 6 couples (your name wasn't living up to it's reputation there mate! ).

Thanks for the clarification...............Although only 6 couples, it is still a very poor attendance for a major dance competition in Victoria.

[Thetruth]

I had a post here but decided to remove it because it sounded a little to self promoting.

Damn!!! I love self promotion......................................

[TheTramp]

Actually, there were 6 couples (your name wasn't living up to it's reputation there mate! ).

Thanks for the clarification...............Although only 6 couples, it is still a very poor attendance for a major dance competition in Victoria.

Not really (at all?). As I said in my previous post, that's pretty much the same numbers that have entered at Masters level in any of the 4 comps I've done in Oz in the last 2 years.

Even in the UK, where the numbers of modern jive dancers far, far exceed the numbers of dancers in Australia, I'd be struggling to find many more couples (people?) than that who would qualify for a Masters comp given the criteria that they have for entry in Oz, amongst the people currently competing in the UK.

Since they have 5 levels of competitor (beginners, intermediate A, intermediate B, advanced and masters) there, the people are split up - and many of the people competing at open level in the UK, would be in advanced, rather than masters, if such a structure was adopted in the UK.

Also, just to re-iterate the point above, the number of dancers in the UK far exceeds the number of dancers in Australia. I wouldn't be surprised if there were more dancers in London & surrounds than there are in the whole of Australia.

[Thetruth]

Not really (at all?). As I said in my previous post, that's pretty much the same numbers that have entered at Masters level in any of the 4 comps I've done in Oz in the last 2 years.

Even in the UK, where the numbers of modern jive dancers far, far exceed the numbers of dancers in Australia, I'd be struggling to find many more couples (people?) than that who would qualify for a Masters comp given the criteria that they have for entry in Oz, amongst the people currently competing in the UK.

Since they have 5 levels of competitor (beginners, intermediate A, intermediate B, advanced and masters) there, the people are split up - and many of the people competing at open level in the UK, would be in advanced, rather than masters, if such a structure was adopted in the UK.

Also, just to re-iterate the point above, the number of dancers in the UK far exceeds the number of dancers in Australia. I wouldn't be surprised if there were more dancers in London & surrounds than there are in the whole of Australia.

Its a shame the competitor numbers are so low. Competition, I believe, is what drives a sport to greater heights. Dancesport competitor numbers would be greater than Ceroc. Significantly, this drives the styles to evolve in costumes, and styling and technique. Unfortunately, I guess with ceroc being a social dance competition (as described here in Oz), competitor numbers will invariably be minimal. Although if I were a serious ceroc competitor then I would be discouraged from competing in ceroc, because its championships have few competitors so its not really such a high level achievement compared to winning at Blackpool in Open Level Dancesport championship. Its like playing Football (Soccer) for Brazil as compared to playing football in a local competition in Tasmania..........
Now lets hear from the protractors..........

[ducasi]

TheTruth, I guess you're just going to have to face it... Ceroc is not a sport.

It doesn't need to "evolve in costumes", and there is already plenty of evolution in style and technique happening (though perhaps not the way you'd like.)

[TheTramp]

Its a shame the competitor numbers are so low. Competition, I believe, is what drives a sport to greater heights.

Personally, I don't think in any way that it's a shame. Ceroc is primarily a social dance. And I hope that it stays that way. Ceroc seems to be evolving quite nicely without the need for competitions really, although, they can be fun for those people who enjoy that sort of thing.

It seems that my truth isn't yours. But you always have had your own opinions on how things should be, haven't you Steve (ok, so that is a bit of a shot in the dark! ).

[David Franklin]

TheTruth, I guess you're just going to have to face it... Ceroc is not a sport.

Moreover, if you want DanceSport, you know where to find it. This will be a lot more productive than spending your time complaining that MJ isn't the same as ballroom.

[David Bailey]

Its a shame the competitor numbers are so low. Competition, I believe, is what drives a sport to greater heights.

As Ducasi and DavidFranklin have said, Ceroc (or Modern Jive) is not a sport. Which should be clear from factors like:

• the lack of clarity of rules
• the lack of a governing body
• the paltry rewards for winning competitions
• the absence of sponsorship or professional dancers
• the complete inconsistencies between competitions

and so on.

Now, it's possible to say that these are all deficiencies which hold back MJ dancing - I've said so myself, more or less - but that's the situation at the moment, so expressing surprise at the fact seems a bit odd.

Although if I were a serious ceroc competitor then I would be discouraged from competing in ceroc,

Err... OK then

because its championships have few competitors so its not really such a high level achievement compared to winning at Blackpool in Open Level Dancesport championship.

Probably true - but so what?

I get the feeling that you're coming at this from a preconceived "this is how things should be" angle, whereas things clearly aren't that way.

[TheTramp]

I get the feeling that you're coming at this from a preconceived "this is how things should be" angle, whereas things clearly aren't that way.

If this is Steveado from the Aussie forum, he tried saying things like this on there too, and was disagreed with.

Bit of Shirley Bassey and the Propellerheads anyone??

[Gadget]

Competition, I believe, is what drives a sport to greater heights.~ Unfortunately, I guess with ceroc being a social dance competition (as described here in Oz), competitor numbers will invariably be minimal.

Fortunatly Ceroc is a social dance and so it keeps the number of people looking to peacock and display to a minimum, which means that the focus is more on those who want to actually dance with their partner: It's not about how everyone looks at your dance and how it looks to everyone spectating - it's about the one person infront of you and sharing a connection with the music.

Personally, I like it developing in this way; the only good thing competitions do is give people a reason to practice together. Some people need that reason and a goal to practice for.

[Thetruth]

If this is Steveado from the Aussie forum, he tried saying things like this on there too, and was disagreed with.

Bit of Shirley Bassey and the Propellerheads anyone??

Dont know of a steveado on the Aussie forum. However, whats with the comment "bit of ShirleyBassey and the Propellerheads"?

[Thetruth]

Fortunatly Ceroc is a social dance and so it keeps the number of people looking to peacock and display to a minimum, which means that the focus is more on those who want to actually dance with their partner: It's not about how everyone looks at your dance and how it looks to everyone spectating - it's about the one person infront of you and sharing a connection with the music.

Personally, I like it developing in this way; the only good thing competitions do is give people a reason to practice together. Some people need that reason and a goal to practice for.

As in Ballroom or Latin American there is the social aspect and the competition aspect. The same could perhaps be said of ceroc, although judging by the razzing...........leaves me disappointed. I am sure there are those people who would like to see ceroc excel in the dance world. I would like to see this, but unfortunately, most (not all perhaps) on this forum seem so negative about ceroc being recognised in the dance world or having flashy dancers (who are awesome to watch and learn from). What is wrong with people wanting to achieve? What is wrong with practicing? Anything wrong with being passionate about dancing?
Comments like, "the number of people looking to peacock and display to a minimum" (so no Nigel's or Viktor's please and Lily and David forget them too! not!!) makes me think this person is perhaps envious or jealous of those that work hard at their dancing???????

[ads]

Dont know of a steveado on the Aussie forum. However, whats with the comment "bit of ShirleyBassey and the Propellerheads"?

I am assuming that he is referring to the song " History Repeating Itself"

[Thetruth]

TheTruth; if you're interested in Dancesport and want to use that as your competition benchmark then Ceroc isn't the best place for you. Ceroc is at the other end of the sporting spectrum.

Competition does drive a sport to greater heights. There are other ways as well though. Competition is usually the fastest I agree but it isn't the be-all-and-end-all. What's the rush anyway?

There are plenty of people out there putting in the time to learn good technique and refining their own dancing not for the sake of competition, but for whatever other reasons they have. They're not as visible as competitors, but that's because they chose not to be. I do my best to keep improving but have no desire to compete.

I can respect a reply to a post like this one!! Way cooooooooooooool!!!!

[ducasi]

Dont know of a steveado on the Aussie forum. ...

Having had a look over there, I've gotta say I can understand how TheTramp might confuse you with "steveado" – if he's confused at all.