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Thread: What on earth are we supposed to do?

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    What on earth are we supposed to do?

    Watch . WARNNG: this is a film of real torture (albeit with a volunteer subject), and it should make any decent person very uncomfortable.

    The United States of America is a noble country. It was founded in the teeth of exploitation and repression and its founding fathers struggled mightily to give it a set of laws and more importantly a set of precepts that were, in their day, unique in history. At a time when the world was in more turmoil than today it welcomed immigrants within its boundaries - including people like Albert Einstein and Leonard Bernstein. At a time of savagery unique in history, it sent its young men to fight and die in North Africa, Italy, France and Germany and across the Pacific without ever descending to the disgusting barbarity of its opponents. Whilst I have fundamental misgivings about its strategy and tactics it spent over 30 years standing in resolute opposition to the industrialised and exported repression of the Soviet Union and, to a lesser extent, the PRC. Look at many of the things we take for granted and see that the US created an economic climate within its borders that led to the invention of the car, the aeroplane, many of the most crucial breakthroughs in modern medicine, modern manufacturing, modern shipping, the transistor, the modern camera, the integrated circuit, the computer - well, you get the picture.

    Of course the US has also been a very unpleasant place to live for negroes, over most of the last 300 years; it has been involved in some disgraceful overseas shenanigans, and so forth. But that does not mean it is not a noble country, taken all for all.

    But memos released from the CIA in the last 24 hours show that one of the detainees at Guantanamo was waterboarded 183 times in one month.

    183.

    It's a prime number, otherwise I could say how many times what 183 is. But that's an average of six times a day. Assuming they allowed the victim 6 hours sleep, that's an average of once every 3 hours.

    The CIA's code of interrogation permitted waterboarding - apparently - up to 12 times a day. That would be once every 90 minutes.

    The memos apparently show that very little, if anything, of any value was obtained by torture - sorry, I mean 'enhanced interrogation' - and in one case, the operatives were ordered to waterboard (at the above excessive level) one detainee even though it was reported up the line that all the interrogators felt he had already provided all the useful information he had prior to the making of the 'enhanced interrogation' warrant by President (hok! ptui) Bush.

    Shakespeare, as is often the case, said it best. "I must write it down: one may smile, and smile, and still be a villain." From now on I shall think of that every time I see a picture of the grinning jackanapes who preceded Barack Obama in the White House.

    There's more shameful stuff yet to come out in this ugly episode. It may be that despite Obama's announcement - that the government will defend any operatives who remained within the guidelines against criminal charges - he is going to have to throw these people on the mercy of the law. I don't see how, given the contempt with which US personnel dealt with the 'following orders' defence of Nazis in Nuremberg, they can now permit their citizens to benefit from the same defence when being asked to account for their willingness to torture a detainee 183 times in one month. (Horrible thought: what about the other months? How many times altogether?)

    [No link for the information on the memos; heard it on R4's Today programme.]
    Last edited by Barry Shnikov; 20th-April-2009 at 09:35 AM. Reason: replaced text with 'grinning jackanapes' - more Shakespeare

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    Re: What on earth are we supposed to do?

    Oh, two more things.

    It's ironic that the US is currently acting on requests for extradition of a concentration camp guard. Wonder if he ever waterboarded anybody?

    And it seems that Obama went further than I realised; he has stated that he does not want anyone who followed orders even to be prosecuted.

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    Re: What on earth are we supposed to do?

    Well, i feel very uncomfortable, infact had to turn it off.

    Dont even want to talk about it

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    Re: What on earth are we supposed to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Of course the US has also been a very unpleasant place to live for negroes, over most of the last 300 years; it has been involved in some disgraceful overseas shenanigans, and so forth. But that does not mean it is not a noble country, taken all for all.
    Its an unpleasent place to live for a lot of people still - based on race, sex, sexual orientation or religion. But it could be argued that that is the price you pay for freedom - that not everyone necessarily likes you but you are still protected by law. Certainly compare the rights of gays in middle eastern countries to the U.S.

    The CIA's code of interrogation permitted waterboarding - apparently - up to 12 times a day.
    So its perfectly legal then ?

    The memos apparently show that very little, if anything, of any value was obtained by torture - sorry, I mean 'enhanced interrogation'
    There is plenty of evidence that torture "works" - in so far as you will eventually get the answer you are looking for, regardless of what the truth happens to be.

    There's more shameful stuff yet to come out in this ugly episode. It may be that despite Obama's announcement - that the government will defend any operatives who remained within the guidelines against criminal charges - he is going to have to throw these people on the mercy of the law. I don't see how, given the contempt with which US personnel dealt with the 'following orders' defence of Nazis in Nuremberg, they can now permit their citizens to benefit from the same defence when being asked to account for their willingness to torture a detainee 183 times in one month. (Horrible thought: what about the other months? How many times altogether?)
    Here is a background on the legality of following illegal orders in the US military. Basically, if it is illegal and you follow it, you will be subject to the full weight of the law if caught. Clearly the "guidelines" Barack Obama talks about are legal, if not then the entire US military brass would face charges for introducing illegal guidelines - doubtful Of course , in cases like this, often sentencing is "behind closed doors" (or there are one or two public scapegoats)- obeying orders and discipline are important after all and you don't necessarily want the lower ranks to consider the implications of their orders.

    Interestingly, it depends who you talk to whether "only following orders" is an acceptable excuse, e.g. Mossad agents who hunt down and execute people are in the clear if its the "moral choice", "moral" trumps "legal" sometimes, or does it? See here

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    Re: What on earth are we supposed to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Here is a background on the legality of following illegal orders[/url] in the US military. Basically, if it is illegal and you follow it, you will be subject to the full weight of the law if caught.
    National legality is not sufficient; it's entirely possible to change the law so that protection is given to intelligence operatives can torture detainees - as the last US administration puported to do - without exonerating those persons from legal blame if it turns out that the change in law was itself unlawful.

    Notably I saw one ex-CIA operative saying something to the effect that 'getting in-house counsel to interpret the law to allow torture was the same thing as giving ourselves permission to do it'; clearly he is recognising that there is a wider (international?) context which is not going to be satisfied by the idea that Alberto Gonzales said "Hey guys, it's OK to torture as long as you do it according to guidelines and with a doctor present!!"

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    Re: What on earth are we supposed to do?

    There's a (former) US Army interrogator Terry Karney who has a blog where he has made numerous posts about the evil of torture (not to mention the fact that it it really doesn't work, whatever Jack Bauer might say).

    For some of his thoughts:

    http://pecunium.livejournal.com/395056.html (personal reactions to the 'torture memos')
    http://pecunium.livejournal.com/395572.html (do the methods work?)
    http://pecunium.livejournal.com/398591.html (how he handles interrogations)

    None of which answer your question, Barry. I can somewhat see why Obama has wimped on this, but it would be nice to see a few other national governments show a backbone and stop with the "Oh, of course we couldn't possibly consider prosecuting Bush/Cheney/Rumsfield for war crimes" bull***t.

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    Re: What on earth are we supposed to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
    ....infact had to turn it off.

    Dont even want to talk about it
    I can't even bring myself to start watching it..

    (bury's head firmly in the sand... fingers in the ears...la la la la la la )
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    Re: What on earth are we supposed to do?

    How bad is the video? One a scale of 1 to 10? Not sure weather to watch it or not.


    Anyway, what happened to The Geneva Convention. Has that fallen by the wayside?


    Also I've never understood why Gueratmala Bay is in Cuba. As Cuba has nothing to do with the USA - how did they come by that land?

    If Che was still alive, he's maybe get Castro to storm it and release the prisoners.


    The UN should have intervened long ago as to keep a prisoner without charge is morally wrong as well as illegal without the loophole.


    Let us also not forget that there are "black prisons" run by the USA all arround the world.

    There is one in the UK (location not known) where the prisioners are not under British Law, but some sort of USA mishmash law.

    Obama in his presedential speech mentioned these "black prisons" and says he intends to get rid of them.

    Guetamala Bay is a "black prison", but the only one that appears in the press.

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    Re: What on earth are we supposed to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    How bad is the video? One a scale of 1 to 10? Not sure weather to watch it or not.
    At the risk of Barry deciding I'm not "a decent person"(*) - it's not that bad. The actual waterboarding is about 15 seconds long and there isn't really much to see - the subject basically can't move, or struggle. Of course, that doesn't mean you can't imagine what is going on. But to be honest, it's only afterwards when they're helping him recover that you can really tell anything happened.

    I found the buildup (where they go over and over the signals he can use to get them to stop) to be a lot harder to watch - because the subtext is "we need to drum this into you, because once we start waterboarding, you're not going to be able to do the simplest things rationally".

    But most of it the video is the volunteer talking about the experience, which is informative. For example the part where he says he now has nightmares, and panics if he gets short of breath. And that was after 15 seconds, and he knew they'd stop any time he wanted them to.

    If you want to avoid watching the waterboarding (and aftermath) itself, avoid watching from 3:15 to 4:05.

    (*) I've seen another similar clip from a volunteer, which was a fair bit longer and more unpleasant, so perhaps I am desensitized.

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: What on earth are we supposed to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    Anyway, what happened to The Geneva Convention. Has that fallen by the wayside?
    In the case of the United States under Bush: yes, apparently. Or at least, it doesn't apply when it's inconvenient...

    Also I've never understood why Gueratmala Bay is in Cuba. As Cuba has nothing to do with the USA - how did they come by that land?
    I think you mean Guantánamo Bay. From Wiki:
    Quote Originally Posted by wiki
    The United States assumed territorial control over Guantánamo Bay under the 1903 Cuban-American Treaty, which granted the United States a perpetual lease of the area.[1] The current Cuban government considers the U.S. presence in Guantánamo to be illegal and the Cuban-American Treaty to have been procured by the threat of force in violation of international law. [2]
    The UN should have intervened long ago as to keep a prisoner without charge is morally wrong as well as illegal without the loophole.
    And how exactly is the UN supposed to intervene against the most powerful nation (militarily and economically) in the world?

    Unfortunately, the whole episode has merely emphasied that "only the losers in a war get prosecuted for war crimes".

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    Re: What on earth are we supposed to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Unfortunately, the whole episode has merely emphasied that "only the losers in a war get prosecuted for war crimes".
    Ha! If you're with the winners its not a war crime AT ALL

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    Re: What on earth are we supposed to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    Anyway, what happened to The Geneva Convention. Has that fallen by the wayside?
    In the case of the United States under Bush: yes, apparently. Or at least, it doesn't apply when it's inconvenient
    The UK did not treat IRA members according to the Geneva Convention, and in WWII members of the various resistance groups were also not covered. The US has argued that the protection of the Convention only applies to uniformed soldiers and guerrillas who wear distinctive insignia, bear arms openly, and abide by the rules of war which Al Qaeda and the Talliban often do not. Personally I think that this is a convenient cop-out that does not reflect the reality of the kinds of urban conflict that exists all over the World, but that is the excuse made.

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    Let us also not forget that there are "black prisons" run by the USA all arround the world.
    Well not all over the world but in some specific locations where such facilities are easy to hide (Eastern Europe, Africa and Asia have been reported)

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    There is one in the UK (location not known) where the prisioners are not under British Law, but some sort of USA mishmash law.
    Don't believe it - where does this suggestion come from. Except for the US Embassy and the US Consulates in Edinburgh and Belfast (and maybe the Welsh Office in Cardiff) all US facilities in the UK are on MoD land and covered by UK law. Where do you think the US could possibly hide a secret prison in our small crowded country - or do you think that the Labour Government is complicit in some grand conspiracy?

    Guantanamo is not a 'black' prison, quite the opposite. Black means hidden and unacknowledged and Guantanamo is right out in the open and in everyone's face. If I was going to have a 'black' prison I'd have it on one of the military reservations in Nevada or New Mexico which are so large and so well secured that you'd never know what goes on inside.

    Speaking as an ex-military guy, none of the above is an excuse for the US taking such an illegal approach to suspected terrorists (and we only have to think back a few years to their condemnation of some of our policies in N Ireland to appreciate just how low they have sunk). The Bush Administration has done untold harm to the US's international standing in their illegal detention and torture of the Guantanamo detainees. There can be no justification for the actions of US personnel in this whole sorry episode which has only served to inflame whatever non-radical portion of Islam actually existed before and means that the US can no longer castigate anyone for human rights abuses. I personally believe that Obama has made a grave error in not prosecuting those responsible - his problem of course is that he'd have had to start with George W Bush!


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    Re: What on earth are we supposed to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agente Secreto View Post
    The US has argued that the protection of the Convention only applies to uniformed soldiers and guerrillas who wear distinctive insignia, bear arms openly, and abide by the rules of war which Al Qaeda and the Talliban often do not. Personally I think that this is a convenient cop-out that does not reflect the reality of the kinds of urban conflict that exists all over the World, but that is the excuse made.
    The thing is, even if you stipulate that Al Qaeda et. al. don't qualify as prisoners of war, the Convention says that even for people falling outside that status:

    ... such individual person shall not be entitled to claim such rights and privileges under the present Convention as would, if exercised in the favour of such individual person, be prejudicial to the security of such State.

    ~ snip ~

    In each case, such persons shall nevertheless be treated with humanity, and in case of trial, shall not be deprived of the rights of fair and regular trial prescribed by the present Convention. They shall also be granted the full rights and privileges of a protected person under the present Convention at the earliest date consistent with the security of the State or Occupying Power, as the case may be.
    It is not as clear cut as the situation for POW treatment, but I don't think the US actions stand up to even those less stringent requirements reserved for spies and saboteurs.

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    Re: What on earth are we supposed to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agente Secreto View Post
    Don't believe it - where does this suggestion come from. Except for the US Embassy and the US Consulates in Edinburgh and Belfast (and maybe the Welsh Office in Cardiff) all US facilities in the UK are on MoD land and covered by UK law. Where do you think the US could possibly hide a secret prison in our small crowded country - or do you think that the Labour Government is complicit in some grand conspiracy?
    I read of it somewhere, but can't remember the source. It was a few years ago.
    I grew about 10 miles from Fylingdales Early warning 'Golf Balls' up on the North Yorks Moors. I don't remember any interaction with any American personage. It was all barbed wire with warning signs not to enter.
    Guantanamo is not a 'black' prison, quite the opposite. Black means hidden and unacknowledged and Guantanamo is right out in the open and in everyone's face. If I was going to have a 'black' prison I'd have it on one of the military reservations in Nevada or New Mexico which are so large and so well secured that you'd never know what goes on inside.
    That's true, but I was thinking in terms of no right to a lawyer.
    The prisioners in these 'black prisons' probably don't either. They sound like the Russian equivalent of gulags. China has them too - forget what they call theirs.

    PS - Nevada was the location of the Roswell 'myth' . Wrong thread though.

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    Re: What on earth are we supposed to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    PS - Nevada was the location of the Roswell 'myth' . Wrong thread though.
    Wrong state as well - Roswell "happened" in New Mexico, seeing as how the town of Roswell is, well, in New Mexico.

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    Re: What on earth are we supposed to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart M View Post
    Wrong state as well - Roswell "happened" in New Mexico, seeing as how the town of Roswell is, well, in New Mexico.
    I stand corrected Sir. Over and in.

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    Re: What on earth are we supposed to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    I stand corrected Sir. Over and in.
    Yes well, stop just making stuff up in future

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    Re: What on earth are we supposed to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Yes well, stop just making stuff up in future
    Oh, stop spoiling her fun!!

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    Re: What on earth are we supposed to do?

    Astro, you may not have interacted with the personnel in Fylingdales, but you sure as hell couldn't miss its presence. The same would be true of a prison camp.

    Though, having said that, there are probably quite a few ex-military and dormant camps in the UK where it would be possible to confine a few dozen people out of the sight of the perimeter fence.

    Much easier to do it in other places, though.

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    Re: What on earth are we supposed to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    I grew about 10 miles from Fylingdales Early warning 'Golf Balls' up on the North Yorks Moors. I don't remember any interaction with any American personage. It was all barbed wire with warning signs not to enter.
    The Fylingdales you probably remember is a lot different now. The golf balls have gone and been replaced by a 'pyramid' called a SSPAR (Solid State Phased Array Radar).

    You wouldn't have seen any Americans since this has been a UK administered site since the 60s (my uncle was one of the first UK contract staff to work there). I went there several times as a serving officer and it's not a very exciting place at all (and no space to hide a prison). However, it did have an Officers' Mess bar that served beer at 70p a pint in 2001

    I think that there is a lot of speculation in the press about some of the secure facilities and locations, and 95% of it is completely wrong (just have to worry about the 5% I guess).

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