View Poll Results: Dance Competitions! What do u feel about them?

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  • I like taking part in MJ competitions

    18 30.51%
  • I would like to enter, but haven't so far

    12 20.34%
  • I can't imagine myself entering a competition

    2 3.39%
  • I would only enter Dance With A Stranger

    4 6.78%
  • I would only do a local competition

    3 5.08%
  • I wish there were more options for newcomers/novices

    6 10.17%
  • I would like a partner please!

    14 23.73%
  • I like to watch/support, but wouldn't enter

    4 6.78%
  • I think dance competitions are evil (expect 1 answer!)

    6 10.17%
  • I'm not interested in competitions at all

    10 16.95%
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Thread: Dance Competitions! What do u feel about them?

  1. #81
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Dance Competitions! What do u feel about them?

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    Yes, I think you would. The jango first move, for example, omits the turn back in of the follower. I believe Ceroc are very prescriptive with the teaching of the beginner's moves (necessarily so, in order to achieve countrywide consistency) so missing off a key component of a move as they teach it would almost certainly see you disqualified.


    You'd definitely get disqualified from Ceroc X - the whole rationale of that is to be strictly beginner-move-only. Lots of people did get disqualified last time, for inadvertently doing a non-beginner move.

    But, presumably, anything goes in other categories, so you could dance Jango and theoretically be OK.

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    Re: Dance Competitions! What do u feel about them?

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    Yes, I think you would [be disqualified in Ceroc X comp]. The jango first move, for example, omits the turn back in of the follower. I believe Ceroc are very prescriptive with the teaching of the beginner's moves (necessarily so, in order to achieve countrywide consistency) so missing off a key component of a move as they teach it would almost certainly see you disqualified.
    Yes I know! Which was the point of considering how far you can style, eg, a Ceroc First Move before its not Ceroc any more.

    I know you could argue that it is, say "Ceroc FM Jango", and therefore not a beginners move. But if I wiggle my hips a bit (or a lot) does that become a "Ceroc FM Latin Stylee" or somesuch, and not a beginners move either?

    I know this is also a different question to is Jango=MJ in general. (Specifically would Jango moves be considered stylistic variations on MJ moves or, not MJ at all). I can't see a problem in throwing in a few moves from any other styles, music permitting, and it would still be MJ. But I reckon dancing 100% Jango moves to tango music would be Jango, not MJ. So probably OK in a Showcase, but not in Int/Adv/Open/Ceroc X I would guess. OTOH, throw in a few MJ travelling returns and manspins, and you have your 20% MJ! OK except for Ceroc X?

  3. #83
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    Re: Dance Competitions! What do u feel about them?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post


    You'd definitely get disqualified from Ceroc X - the whole rationale of that is to be strictly beginner-move-only. Lots of people did get disqualified last time, for inadvertently doing a non-beginner move.

    But, presumably, anything goes in other categories, so you could dance Jango and theoretically be OK.
    As I understand it, the point of Ceroc X is to use musicality and style to push the limits of what you can do with beginners moves. I assume that if you dance beginners moves as they are demonstrated in a beginners class you will look a bit of a prat! A couple of prats really. Its clear that Ceroc X is and Advanced/Open category, not Beginners or Intermediate. So just what are you allowed to do before getting disqualified?

    Or more specifically, what would get you disqualified? Apart from not dancing beginners moves of course
    Last edited by Patrick; 19th-October-2006 at 04:16 PM.

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    Smile Re: Dance Competitions! What do u feel about them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
    As I understand it, the point of Ceroc X is to use musicality and style to push the limits of what you can do with beginners moves. I assume that if you dance beginners moves as they are demonstrated in a beginners class you will look a bit of a prat! A couple of prats really. Its clear that Ceroc X is and Advanced/Open category, not Beginners or Intermediate. So just what are you allowed to do before getting disqualified?

    Or more specifically, what would get you disqualified? Apart from not dancing beginners moves of course
    The point is that you do the moves as taught i.e all component parts but this does not mean you have to look like a beginner when dancing them. It's an open category in the truest sense in that people at all levels of experience can enter. There was debate when the category was first announced for this year's champs as to what the purpose was and, for some, the thinking was that by limiting the available moves, you could emphasise the style and musicality that someone uses to perform those moves. I think it's a good idea but am not sure that the reality of it matched Mike Ellard's expectations (hence his exhortations at the Champs for more teachers, etc to enter that category). It's a category that would attract me were I interested in competing but I feel sure I lack the discipline not to get myself disqualified.

    Robert

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    Re: Dance Competitions! What do u feel about them?

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    Yes, I think you would. The jango first move, for example, omits the turn back in of the follower. I believe Ceroc are very prescriptive with the teaching of the beginner's moves (necessarily so, in order to achieve countrywide consistency) so missing off a key component of a move as they teach it would almost certainly see you disqualified.
    The Jango styled first move is a different, but similar, move - it's a first move variation, of which Ceroc itself has many. In the Ceroc X category you have to do the first move as taught beginners. If you do any other move you are not doing the first move that is required in the rules. But are still doing Modern Jive.

    I'm amazed at the response to my post about Jango being MJ. I've had robd and Patrick saying they disagree with me and then saying they are not qualified to disagree. So why do it? And, even more amazingly, I've had DavidJames agree with me - which makes me wonder if I'm right

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    Re: Dance Competitions! What do u feel about them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I've had robd and Patrick saying they disagree with me and then saying they are not qualified to disagree. So why do it?
    is an interesting interpretation of

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    Not sure I would agree with this though there are a number of people on here better qualified to judge it than I.
    I didn't feel that I was not qualified to comment but that other forumites such as Amir (obviously ), Will and Chris A would be significantly better qualified to comment than I.

    Robert

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    Re: Dance Competitions! What do u feel about them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    In the Ceroc X category you have to do the first move as taught beginners.
    Do you have to start the dance with a semi-circle and step-back?
    Also, after you finish the dance, do you have to give yourself a round of applause?

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    Re: Dance Competitions! What do u feel about them?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Do you have to start the dance with a semi-circle and step-back?
    Also, after you finish the dance, do you have to give yourself a round of applause?
    You forgot to introduce yourself to your partner!

  9. #89
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    Re: Dance Competitions! What do u feel about them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I'm amazed at the response to my post about Jango being MJ. I've had robd and Patrick saying they disagree with me and then saying they are not qualified to disagree. So why do it?
    I was just giving my current impression of all this, based on admittedly limited, but intense experience. I don't think it matters much on the whole, a dance is just a dance after all. But I wouldn't want to be disqualified in a competition for dancing a move a bit wrong. Marked down for pushing the limits OK, but disqualification is a bit severe. Strictly Ballroom again!

    I will read the Ceroc X rules again and see how clear they are. I am amazed if doing a part-move is a hanging offence, its not actually adding anything is it? Seems to me an inventive use of what you're given to work with. So does a stand alone Pushpin not preceded by an arm jive not count? What about 4 arm jives and no Pushpin/Swizzle/Turn Return? And what are the beginner's moves this week anyway? (They seem to change randomly from year to year, class to class, and are definitely not standard across Ceroc venues).

    And, even more amazingly, I've had DavidJames agree with me - which makes me wonder if I'm right
    Well I don't know David well yet, but maybe you should wonder Andy! I resolved I wouldn't get into 'arguments' on this forum... New resolution - keep resolutions!

    No hard feelings I hope

    Patrick

  10. #90
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    Re: Dance Competitions! What do u feel about them?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Do you have to start the dance with a semi-circle and step-back?
    Also, after you finish the dance, do you have to give yourself a round of applause?
    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    You forgot to introduce yourself to your partner!
    Come on you guys, this is a serious discussion here.

    But you did forget lots of important details. Like shuffling up close to your partner, a few false starts while the teacher tells obigatory risque jokes, fall about laughing/cringing, get distracted by the tedium and flirt with partner, get told off for ignoring the teacher, say 'Thank You' at the end, smile, and if it goes really well, get phone number. A winning effort I think.

    What's that? some people come to learn to dance?

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    Re: Dance Competitions! What do u feel about them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
    Come on you guys, this is a serious discussion here.

    But you did forget lots of important details. Like shuffling up close to your partner, a few false starts while the teacher tells obigatory risque jokes, fall about laughing/cringing, get distracted by the tedium and flirt with partner, get told off for ignoring the teacher, say 'Thank You' at the end, smile, and if it goes really well, get phone number. A winning effort I think.

    What's that? some people come to learn to dance?
    Serious, sorry I no understand

  12. #92
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    Re: Dance Competitions! What do u feel about them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    Serious, sorry I no understand
    I was being so serious I forgot to throw in the odd and and .... (never used that one before)

    I was told off by a lady tonight for looking serious! Moi? I was just cultivating that smouldering look... or plotting a dastardly non-standard move. I love it when they say, "Oooo, I've never seen that move before! ", and I'm thinking, "You're not the only one..." And they'll probably never see it again either!
    Last edited by Patrick; 21st-October-2006 at 03:18 AM.

  13. #93
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    Re: Dance Competitions! What do u feel about them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I'm amazed at the response to my post about Jango being MJ. I've had robd and Patrick saying they disagree with me and then saying they are not qualified to disagree. So why do it? And, even more amazingly, I've had DavidJames agree with me - which makes me wonder if I'm right
    I'm not sure I'm qualified to agree either

    But I think you make a good case for Jango being a variant of MJ - like Blues, for example - rather than a distinct and different dance. Based on the music, the hold and the non-progressive nature, I also think it's a MJ variant.

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    Re: Dance Competitions! What do u feel about them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    The Jango styled first move is a different, but similar, move - it's a first move variation, of which Ceroc itself has many. In the Ceroc X category you have to do the first move as taught beginners. If you do any other move you are not doing the first move that is required in the rules. But are still doing Modern Jive.
    The"Jango" variant does not have the lead stepping back, mirroring the follower and it has a 'step under' exit. It does not follow the basic "Ceroc" first move. Fairly obvious: you can't do that variation.

    What puzzles me about it is what would happen if I removed all the returns? What about if I paused or played with the timeing? Is the move still the same move if there is a 'break' in it? if it dosn't follow the same timeing?
    I suppose a move is a series of "movements", therefore timeing shouldn't matter?

    Would a "traveling return" be allowed?

  15. #95
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    Re: Dance Competitions! What do u feel about them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    What puzzles me about it is what would happen if I removed all the returns? What about if I paused or played with the timeing? Is the move still the same move if there is a 'break' in it? if it dosn't follow the same timeing?
    I suppose a move is a series of "movements", therefore timeing shouldn't matter?

    Would a "traveling return" be allowed?
    Very good questions - basically, do you have to do the moves exactly as taught in the classes? If in doubt, I'd assume "yes" - the challenge is then to make them look good without most of the standard toolbox of musicality and variation you'd otherwise be allowed.

    I'll ask the Ceroc X Champions (!) tonight, see what they say.

  16. #96
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    Re: Dance Competitions! What do u feel about them?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Very good questions - basically, do you have to do the moves exactly as taught in the classes? If in doubt, I'd assume "yes" - the challenge is then to make them look good without most of the standard toolbox of musicality and variation you'd otherwise be allowed.

    I'll ask the Ceroc X Champions (!) tonight, see what they say.
    So what did they say David? I tried some Ceroc X last night. It is horribly difficult! I found that typically I can only do 2 beginners moves before getting an uncontrollable urge to do something else.

    I just entered Ceroc X for the Midlands Champs... maybe we'll go for the couple-with-most-violations-to-the-rules-wooden-spoon-prize. Try to dance no beginners moves at all. I always was a rebel.

    I did ask Amir on Monday if he thought Jango was a form of Modern Jive. The short answer was - he doesn't know! The long answer was much more informative, but still not conclusive. But he did think that Blues definitely isn't MJ, and I agree... Thanks for the rep BTW!

    A rose by any other name...
    Last edited by Patrick; 26th-October-2006 at 05:50 AM.

  17. #97
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    Re: Dance Competitions! What do u feel about them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
    So what did they say David?
    B&gger, it completely slipped my mind...

    I saw them do a bit of their routine a while back though (well, freestyle) and it did generally seem quite conventional, not a lot of pushing the envelope (in a nice way of course). It's almost an elimination contest, the couple who don't make a mistake are the winners or whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
    I did ask Amir on Monday if he thought Jango was a form of Modern Jive. The short answer was - he doesn't know! The long answer was much more informative, but still not conclusive.
    Yes, he posted much the same on the MJDA forum. Kind of puts the kibosh on any further debate I reckon.

  18. #98
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    Re: Dance Competitions! What do u feel about them?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Re: Ceroc X Winners/Rules

    B&gger, it completely slipped my mind...

    I saw them do a bit of their routine a while back though (well, freestyle) and it did generally seem quite conventional, not a lot of pushing the envelope (in a nice way of course). It's almost an elimination contest, the couple who don't make a mistake are the winners or whatever.
    Yes I think that will be the challenge for me, just to avoid launching into the non-beginner moves I do routinely. Come to think of it, I rarely do beginners moves as taught either...

    Originally Posted by Patrick
    I did ask Amir on Monday if he thought Jango was a form of Modern Jive. The short answer was - he doesn't know! The long answer was much more informative, but still not conclusive.
    Originally posted by DavidJames
    Yes, he [Amir] posted much the same on the MJDA forum. Kind of puts the kibosh on any further debate I reckon.
    Oh I don't know, I think we're capable of endless pontification and speculation!

    The "is Jango = Modern Jive?" question is relevant to competitions. Someone well placed to know feels Amir & Cat would have won the Brit Rock Showcase if they had done traditional MJ rather than Jango. To my mind that says Jango is not MJ, or else it would be judged equally to "conventional" MJ. If you just want to dance your dance, it's not important. If you want to be placed as highly as possible in a competition, then it matters.

    I know I'm going to regret this, but what/where is the MJDA forum?

    Patrick

    "...so, I'm going to do MY kind of dancing, with a great partner..." Johnny Castle
    Last edited by Patrick; 26th-October-2006 at 02:49 PM.

  19. #99
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    Re: Dance Competitions! What do u feel about them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
    The "is Jango = Modern Jive?" question is relevant to competitions. Someone well placed to know feels Amir & Cat would have won the Brit Rock Showcase if they had done traditional MJ rather than Jango.
    And since when has a Conventional MJ routine ever featured in a showcase The sources I heard seemed to suggest (and I heard similar wrt the Blackpool champs) is that it was down to pure 'entertainment' value. Now, we just need to define 'entertainment'

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    Re: Dance Competitions! What do u feel about them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
    I know I'm going to regret this, but what/where is the MJDA forum?
    http://www.mjda.org/forum/

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