Dance Competitions! What do u feel about them?

[Gav]

My advice with competitions is to enter your first competition before you're ready. Then, when your dancing's ready, it won't be your first competition.

Hadn't looked at it like that, but it makes sense.
Ta.

[Baruch]

So, hummm, what you're saying is, MJ dance competitions are basically pointless?

Not at all. I'm just saying that independent competitions are probably fairer in that they're less likely to judge according to only one organisation's criteria.

That said, in any competition there will probably be at least some disagreement with the results because opinions are like @rseholes -- we've all got one.

[David Bailey]

Not at all. I'm just saying that independent competitions are probably fairer in that they're less likely to judge according to only one organisation's criteria.

But at least Ceroc have criteria.

The only criteria other organisations use is "It must be Modern Jive". What the hell does that mean? How do you judge based on something as wishy-washy as that?

[ducasi]

Do Ceroc have a set of criteria?

Has it been shown that the Ceroc judges are biased towards Ceroc-taught dancers?

As for a definition of what "Modern Jive" is... I don't know if I could describe it, but I knows it when I sees it!

Hopefully judges at Modern Jive competitions can do likewise.

[David Bailey]

Do Ceroc have a set of criteria?

They certainly did for the Ceroc X competition, and looking at the Champs definitions, I think it's more tightly-defined with Ceroc, yes.

Has it been shown that the Ceroc judges are biased towards Ceroc-taught dancers?

Almost certainly not.

As for a definition of what "Modern Jive" is... I don't know if I could describe it, but I knows it when I sees it!

Hopefully judges at Modern Jive competitions can do likewise.

I've no problems with judges being excellent abiters of timing, floorcraft, presentation, connection, musicality and so on. But how do they judge when a couple is not dancing Modern Jive?

Would a couple doing 100% Jango be disqualified? How about 50%? Or just a couple of ochos?

[ducasi]

They certainly did for the Ceroc X competition, and looking at the Champs definitions, I think it's more tightly-defined with Ceroc, yes.

This is how they define "Modern Jive":

The dance must be recognisable as a modern jive like Ceroc. (Lindy Hop, Jitterbug, West Coast Swing, East Coast Swing, 50s style Rock 'n' Roll, Ballroom Jive etc are not modern jives and therefore are not permitted.)

Well that clears that one up!

Would a couple doing 100% Jango be disqualified? How about 50%? Or just a couple of ochos?

Just so long as there was sufficient "J" in their Jango, no problem. Is it Blackpool or the Scottish champs that says something about 80% of the dance must be recognisable as Modern Jive?

[Andy McGregor]

Would a couple doing 100% Jango be disqualified? How about 50%? Or just a couple of ochos?

Jango is Modern Jive. A dance is defined by the timing and the MJ timing is a simple 1234 with equal timing on each count with the first movement on beat one, timing can be single timing on beats 1 & 3 or double time using all beats. You can't say the same for other partner dances and this is what makes MJ different and therefore it's what defines the dance. Jango has used some moves from Tango and changed the timing to MJ timing - that means it's MJ.

[David Bailey]

Jango is Modern Jive. A dance is defined by the timing and the MJ timing is a simple 1234 with equal timing on each count with the first movement on beat one, timing can be single timing on beats 1 & 3 or double time using all beats. You can't say the same for other partner dances and this is what makes MJ different and therefore it's what defines the dance. Jango has used some moves from Tango and changed the timing to MJ timing - that means it's MJ.

You know, I think I'd agree with you ( ) - looking at the fundamentals, it's a non-progressive dance, it is done to MJ timing as you said, and it depends on MJ for entry / exit points.

So based on this I guess the judges would allow any moves, except airsteps, as "Modern Jive"?

[robd]

Jango has used some moves from Tango and changed the timing to MJ timing - that means it's MJ.

Not sure I would agree with this though there are a number of people on here better qualified to judge it than I. At more than one of the Jango workshops I have attended Amir has talked about the timing not being fixed (being 'elastic' could be one way to look at it). Indeed he was gently mocking of a number of people at one workshop who couldn't grasp the slow, slow, quick, quick pattern he was demonstrating. The fact that many people then dance their Jango steps to fixed timing doesn't mean that Jango itself is bound by that.

Or maybe I have misunderstood what you are meaning by the above entirely??

Robert

[Patrick]

Not sure I would agree with this though there are a number of people on here better qualified to judge it than I. At more than one of the Jango workshops I have attended Amir has talked about the timing not being fixed (being 'elastic' could be one way to look at it). Indeed he was gently mocking of a number of people at one workshop who couldn't grasp the slow, slow, quick, quick pattern he was demonstrating. The fact that many people then dance their Jango steps to fixed timing doesn't mean that Jango itself is bound by that.

Or maybe I have misunderstood what you are meaning by the above entirely??

Robert

Hi Robert!

What have I started here?!! Though I'm pleased the discussion is now getting to some serious issues.

I'm with you here. I'm not experienced enough to know the answers to some of these questions! But in this case I would have assumed that Jango might not qualify as MJ in a competition. I've heard Amir teach "now here are some jive moves to get in the modern jive element", as if he was trying to make it just about enough to be considered MJ.

I also don't get the feeling that Ceroc has a better definition of MJ than anyone else. I think Ceroc X highlights this point (beginners moves only) - AFAIK there is no definition of how far you can interpret a beginners move before judges would say its not a beginners move any more. Freezes? Styling? Missing out the returns? Stretching the timing? FM slingshot?

As I mentioned in another post, I don't think there should be a tight definition anyway, that would discourage innovation, as in the "Strictly Ballroom" film. I sometimes get told off by my first Ceroc teacher for not using hand holds as taught by Ceroc. Having done many styles now, I just adapt my hold according to the music and the moves and the partner. If she says it again I will probably say "Maybe this is not 'Strictly Ceroc', but it works for me!" In the detail, Leroc and Ceroc sometimes teach directly opposite "must do's", but I don't think that substantially changes the nature of the dance, especially to an observer.

As you may have noticed in the Monday-Lush thread I said I would love a dance with Sparkles, but it may not be Jango. To the extent I can do 'proper' Jango, it has a completely different feel to standard MJ. More flowing, elastic. Just doing a Jango first move and change places to "Temptation" was a heart-stopping experience for me. I doubt it would qualify as Ceroc moves in Ceroc X though. Or maybe it would?

I think if the judges have a wide range of backgrounds, the decisions should be fair, even if not unanimous. If there were no element of luck/randomness in the decisions, it would make competitions less exciting IMHO. The same people would always win. (OK a bit of a generalisation, but I hope you get the point) Surprising decisions, (unless obviously biased), will encourage innovation.

Patrick

[robd]

As you may have noticed in the Monday-Lush thread I said I would love a dance with Sparkles,

So you don't remember the one you had on Monday then....

[David Bailey]

I've replied to the "Jango, what is it?" bits on the "Jango" thread - feel free to join me there

As I mentioned in another post, I don't think there should be a tight definition anyway, that would discourage innovation, as in the "Strictly Ballroom" film.

I totally agree with this - however, the looser a definition you have of what the dance form is, the more subjective it becomes to judge whether the dance is MJ or not.

If you allow Jango (and Andy's made a good case for it, he's persuaded me at least), then presumably you can allow steps of WCS, cha-cha, etc. - in fact, you have to, because a lot of MJ steps have those elements in anyway.

So where do you draw the line?

[ducasi]

Jango is Modern Jive. A dance is defined by the timing and the MJ timing is a simple 1234 with equal timing on each count with the first movement on beat one, timing can be single timing on beats 1 & 3 or double time using all beats. You can't say the same for other partner dances and this is what makes MJ different and therefore it's what defines the dance. Jango has used some moves from Tango and changed the timing to MJ timing - that means it's MJ.

How does the timing of Tango differ from Modern Jive?

If I were to dance a Jango dance using 100% Tango steps, would that really be Modern Jive?

Doesn't Mambo and Salsa ("On 2") have the same timing? Are they the same dance?

I think there's more to a dance than the timing. While a particular timing may be a unique characteristic of a dance, I don't think it defines the dance. I think the shape, typical tempo, and attitude of a dance also have to be taken into account.

[Gadget]

What about the music? Dosn't that have any bearing?

[MartinHarper]

Is there a serious problem with WCS dancers winning MJ competitions by dancing WCS? I would expect them to be more interested in winning WCS competitions.

[Gus]

Is there a serious problem with WCS dancers winning MJ competitions by dancing WCS? I would expect them to be more interested in winning WCS competitions.

... urrr and how many WCS competitions are there in the UK and how much prize money is available in them?

[Lynn]

IMHO, dance competitions are all about the enjoyment of the day. If you find it painfully stressful you should become a spectator.

I've only been to one, had been planning to go as a spectator - someone talked me into entering to really experience a comp. Glad they did, I was scared, but it was a great day and taking part very much added to my enjoyment of the event.

[Patrick]

So you don't remember the one you had on Monday then....

Ah, but on Monday afternoon when I posted, the dance with Sparkles was in the future... Yes I do remember of course, and it was suitably Sparkly! I think I managed about 1.5 Jango moves before lapsing into MJ, which was the point I had in mind even b4 I came to the Jango class.

So far I don't buy the Jango = MJ argument. Though to try it out I'm considering entering Ceroc X at the Midlands Champs and dancing Jango styled beginners moves. Would we be disqualified do you think? (Guess I'd better discuss this with my partner first tho..)

Patrick

[David Bailey]

How does the timing of Tango differ from Modern Jive?

Errr, quite a lot. Someone with actual musical knowledge is better to answer than me...

If I were to dance a Jango dance using 100% Tango steps, would that really be Modern Jive?

Assuming it's done to a tango-y track, then it's not Jango it's Tango.
If you're dancing 100% Tango steps to a MJ track - actually, I don't believe that's really possible. You can't dance AT to MJ tracks.

Doesn't Mambo and Salsa ("On 2") have the same timing? Are they the same dance?

They're both based on the clave, and they're pretty similar dances, yes, at least for some salsa variants. Salsa, mambo, rumba, cha cha, bachata (yuk!), etc. - all related by the music.

I think there's more to a dance than the timing. While a particular timing may be a unique characteristic of a dance, I don't think it defines the dance. I think the shape, typical tempo, and attitude of a dance also have to be taken into account.

Hmm, I dunno. I think the music does define the dance, mostly... OK, salsa styles can be mostly danced to any music, but there still is "Cuban" music, Columbian music, etc. And tango styles are definitely all based on the music played.

[robd]

Ah, but on Monday afternoon when I posted, the dance with Sparkles was in the future... Yes I do remember of course, and it was suitably Sparkly! I think I managed about 1.5 Jango moves before lapsing into MJ, which was the point I had in mind even b4 I came to the Jango class.

I know. I was only teasing you. I, and the vast majority I would guess, of people who attend Jango lessons tend not to carry a huge amount of it through into the freestyle even though I know I should at least try to do so.

So far I don't buy the Jango = MJ argument. Though to try it out I'm considering entering Ceroc X at the Midlands Champs and dancing Jango styled beginners moves. Would we be disqualified do you think?

Yes, I think you would. The jango first move, for example, omits the turn back in of the follower. I believe Ceroc are very prescriptive with the teaching of the beginner's moves (necessarily so, in order to achieve countrywide consistency) so missing off a key component of a move as they teach it would almost certainly see you disqualified.