View Poll Results: Dance Competitions! What do u feel about them?

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  • I like taking part in MJ competitions

    18 30.51%
  • I would like to enter, but haven't so far

    12 20.34%
  • I can't imagine myself entering a competition

    2 3.39%
  • I would only enter Dance With A Stranger

    4 6.78%
  • I would only do a local competition

    3 5.08%
  • I wish there were more options for newcomers/novices

    6 10.17%
  • I would like a partner please!

    14 23.73%
  • I like to watch/support, but wouldn't enter

    4 6.78%
  • I think dance competitions are evil (expect 1 answer!)

    6 10.17%
  • I'm not interested in competitions at all

    10 16.95%
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Thread: Dance Competitions! What do u feel about them?

  1. #21
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    Re: Dance Competitions! What do u feel about them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    As a dancer, point to anyone who wants to be worse than they can be!? Why does making it a purely social dance exclude the possibility that people don't want to be as good as they can be? Or try to be?


    "Normal progression"? Do you mean what's taught from stage, what you have lerned from the stage, or what you could learn from the stage? Why won't you ever learn stuff from watching the stage and dancing with people in a normal class/workshop?

    I think that the only void I find in current teaching is pointing out areas where people could improve... or more appropriately, pupils picking up on these areas. What to do to improve is not that important: if the pupil identifies what they want to work on, then they will find feedback on it, ask people about it and watch for things to help them improve it.
    If you approach a class with the concept of ignoring the actual moves that are being taught, and seeing what else is there - you can pick up quite a bit.

    Really? The only thing I would think on differently on for practice to a competition would be presentation to an outside audience... And I don't dance for them: I dance for me and my partner.

    As Ducassi points out, the biggest improvement comes from having someone to spend some one-on-one time with and give direct feedback - the actual 'competition' is only there for motivation.


    What do I feel about dance competitions?
    I think that MJ is primarily a social dance and the best measure of success is being asked to dance. Putting that into a competition environment would translate to the person who could adapt to different music and different partners the best. Someone who wins or is placed in a rotational 'Lucky Dip' would be the only competition result I would be wholey impressed by.

    Anything else can be won with single mindedness, hard work and time/money dedicated to it. In isolation. It's this isolation that (for me) is against the whole MJ ethos and what most competitions stifle. When people are practicing, they are practicing how to dance and how to look good - at the exclusion of the environment they are trying to represent.

    Competitions - evil. Weekenders - heavenly. {IMHO}
    Hoorah for that man! I really don't see how taking part in competitions makes you a better dancer other than if you have private lessons or spend hours and hours practising- but then that's no guarantee of improvement. To me lessons if you take part in them seriously mean you improve. Add to that dancing with lots of different dancers in freestyles and weekenders and bothering to dance with teachers in weekly lessons.
    I don't understand the interminable fascination with freestyles in the Northwest having, it seems, monthly competitions which just mean the paying dancer gets even less time on the dance floor.
    I want to dance because I like dancing and have absolutely no interest in competitions or cabaret. Can I propose something novel-more time for dancing please at freestyles.
    (And yes I am ranting and yes I know we're all entitled to our own opinion and there are people who don't think competitions are evil. It's been a long day)

  2. #22
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    Re: Dance Competitions! What do u feel about them?

    Quote Originally Posted by dance cat View Post
    Hoorah for that man! I really don't see how taking part in competitions makes you a better dancer other than if you have private lessons or spend hours and hours practising- but then that's no guarantee of improvement. To me lessons if you take part in them seriously mean you improve. Add to that dancing with lots of different dancers in freestyles and weekenders and bothering to dance with teachers in weekly lessons.
    I think, from what people have said, that the competitions act as a very good incentive to improve your dancing - on that whole principle of how being hanged tomorrow morning focusses your mind a lot. Although most people don't volunteer to be hanged

    However, that doesn't mean you can't have other incentives, or that it's the best method. Lots of practice, lots of private lessons, lots of learning other forms, and lots of feedback from everyone involved - that seems to be the main way of improving yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by dance cat View Post
    (And yes I am ranting and yes I know we're all entitled to our own opinion and there are people who don't think competitions are evil. It's been a long day)
    Hah, that's not a rant - you have much to learn young Cat person

  3. #23
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    Re: Dance Competitions! What do u feel about them?

    I'm with Gadget on this one. Aside from everything else, I am chiefly a social dancer, and I want my lead, my connection, my musicality to be as good as I can possibly get them. These things are not the most important criteria for competition... and to focus on what I'd need to compete well, I'd have to change my priorities.

    As for the 'Normal progression' thing - I think there's a limit to how good you can get at anything without increasing the effort you put in. If you want to be good enough to compete - sure - you need to put a lot more effort in on the right things. I have to do the same to achieve what I want - what you need is a focus - and competition can provide that. My own focus is simply the desire to improve. I do specifically seek out ways of learning what I want, that I couldn't get by just going to regular classes - but I personally don't need the lure of competition to motivate me to do that.

  4. #24
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    Re: Dance Competitions! What do u feel about them?

    A long while back, there was a post about being "as good a dancer as I can be". It'd involve sacrifices. Sacrificing money by reducing work hours and spending money on private lessons and good workshops. Sacrificing other hobbies, and time spent chilling. No TV/internet. Plus, taking up hobbies that support dance that might not be as fun. Pilates; music theory; martial arts; keep-fit; choreography. Seems like hard work. So, honestly, I guess I don't want to be the best dancer I can be.

    Sure, there's nothing much competitions give you that you can't do as a social dancer. I could get private lessons. I could attend workshops. I could spend time practicing. Still, possibility is not reality. Gus talks about the best competition dancers practicing "at least 5 hours a week". I don't do that. Do any social dancers do that? I dunno.

  5. #25
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    Re: Dance Competitions! What do u feel about them?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Gus talks about the best competition dancers practicing "at least 5 hours a week". I don't do that. Do any social dancers do that? I dunno.
    I've never practised specifically for a competition (in the UK, I did put in a few practises for the Brisbane comp, but only cos Simone made me!). I dance way more than 5 hours on an average week. But I don't look upon it as practice!

  6. #26
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    Re: Dance Competitions! What do u feel about them?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    Aside from everything else, I am chiefly a social dancer, and I want my lead, my connection, my musicality to be as good as I can possibly get them. These things are not the most important criteria for competition... and to focus on what I'd need to compete well, I'd have to change my priorities.
    I'd say that lead/follow, connection and musicality are the most vital elements for competition. Without those elements being solid, nothing else will work properly.

    Personally, I want to be a good social dancer and a good competitive dancer. I don't see any contradiction or conflict between the two.

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    Re: Dance Competitions! What do u feel about them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch View Post
    I'd say that lead/follow, connection and musicality are the most vital elements for competition. Without those elements being solid, nothing else will work properly.
    I like the theory

    After watching quite a few comps, it became pretty clear to me that the competitors that I liked the most, who inspired me the most, were most often not the ones who seemed to catch the eye of the judges.

    I love watching people mess around, playing with the music - and I love doing the same. To compete, doing that simply doesn't suffice - no matter how high a level you do it to.

  8. #28
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    Re: Dance Competitions! What do u feel about them?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    A long while back, there was a post about being "as good a dancer as I can be". It'd involve sacrifices. Sacrificing money by reducing work hours and spending money on private lessons and good workshops. Sacrificing other hobbies, and time spent chilling. No TV/internet. Plus, taking up hobbies that support dance that might not be as fun. Pilates; music theory; martial arts; keep-fit; choreography. Seems like hard work. So, honestly, I guess I don't want to be the best dancer I can be.
    Very good points. If you were really serious, you'd be studying dance full-time, including anatomy, physiology, probably physics (momentum etc.). Most of us aren't that serious.

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Sure, there's nothing much competitions give you that you can't do as a social dancer. I could get private lessons. I could attend workshops. I could spend time practicing. Still, possibility is not reality. Gus talks about the best competition dancers practicing "at least 5 hours a week". I don't do that. Do any social dancers do that? I dunno.
    At most, I practise about 1-2 hours (AT) a week, not including classes.

  9. #29
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    Re: Dance Competitions! What do u feel about them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch View Post
    I'd say that lead/follow, connection and musicality are the most vital elements for competition. Without those elements being solid, nothing else will work properly.
    Probably best to discuss this on the "To successfully compete takes" thread?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch View Post
    Personally, I want to be a good social dancer and a good competitive dancer. I don't see any contradiction or conflict between the two.
    I think there's a lot of overlap in the skillset requirements for both - but I also think that there are specific and exclusive skillsets for each.

    For example, focussing on competitions won't teach you how to adjust your style to that of a new partner, and focussing on social dancing won't teach you how to present yourself visually.

    So you certainly can be a good social dancer and a good competitive dancer - but if you're good at one, you may not automatically be as good at the other. Both take work and practice.

  10. #30
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    Re: Dance Competitions! What do u feel about them?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    For example, focussing on competitions won't teach you how to adjust your style to that of a new partner
    Unless you're focussing on entering DWAS!

  11. #31
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    Re: Dance Competitions! What do u feel about them?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    Unless you're focussing on entering DWAS!
    Does anyone ever do that? If so, how - how do you practise for a DWAS?

  12. #32
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    Re: Dance Competitions! What do u feel about them?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Does anyone ever do that? If so, how - how do you practise for a DWAS?
    Well, derrrr.... I guess dancing with lots of strangers might help a bit! A bit like one does all the time... hence a bit pointless IMHO (The DWAS category that is. Dancing with strangers is challenging and can be fun)

    At the moment I prefer to dance (but not exclusively) with partners I know I have a connection with. Dancing with too many disparate styles (to put it politely) sets back my learning, and sometimes hurts!

    PS I did try to rep you the other day, but it wouldn't accept it. I'll have another go..
    Last edited by Patrick; 16th-October-2006 at 11:30 AM.

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    Re: Dance Competitions! What do u feel about them?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Does anyone ever do that? If so, how - how do you practise for a DWAS?
    Learn how to adjust your style to that of a new partner...

  14. #34
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    Re: Dance Competitions! What do u feel about them?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    After watching quite a few comps, it became pretty clear to me that the competitors that I liked the most, who inspired me the most, were most often not the ones who seemed to catch the eye of the judges.
    That's just as likely to be due to the personal tastes of the judges as anything else.

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    I love watching people mess around, playing with the music - and I love doing the same. To compete, doing that simply doesn't suffice - no matter how high a level you do it to.
    True - but it can help.

    I'm sure it's no coincidence that my favourite partners to dance with socially have nearly all competed, some at the highest levels. All of them enjoy playing around with the music and have fantastic musicality.

  15. #35
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    Re: Dance Competitions! What do u feel about them?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    Learn how to adjust your style to that of a new partner...
    Nope - that's what you want to achieve. Obviously.

    What I want to know is, how can you get there - apart from the obvious answer of dancing with lots of different people.

    In other words, what's a good way of self-improvement, that doesn't depend on having a (regular) dance partner?

  16. #36
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    Re: Dance Competitions! What do u feel about them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daydreaming Diva View Post
    Thanks Patrick. No, I never check the 'Remember me' box, but will do in future. It's usually OK, but this time (long meaningful post) it mattered. Feeling really miserable - everything seems to be going wrong today so thanks for the hug. Couldn't blow me a few kisses as well could you? Think I'm on a low after the most wonderful evening on Friday at Hove before the Saturday comps, which I didn't go to in the end.

    Will try and summon up the spirit to give you my thoughts later.
    Good Morning Daydreaming Diva!

    At least you went to the pre comp dance! Though I did end up dancing in a night club with friends till the early hours, which was great fun. Were you planning to be in the competition?

    I'm feeling really miserable too - everything seems to be going wrong, oh, this year really! (Well you have to laugh, sometimes) Look out for PM.

    Patrick

  17. #37
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    Re: Dance Competitions! What do u feel about them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    As a dancer, point to anyone who wants to be worse than they can be!? Why does making it a purely social dance exclude the possibility that people don't want to be as good as they can be? Or try to be?
    Of course many non competitors want to be good at what they're doing, what I'm saying is that for me competition forces me to confront my particular demons. Without competition I would blindly carry on doing what I'm doing, in many cases not even knowing that I'm doing things wrong.

    "Normal progression"? Do you mean what's taught from stage, what you have learned from the stage, or what you could learn from the stage? Why won't you ever learn stuff from watching the stage and dancing with people in a normal class/workshop?
    OK, so can you spin properly? Spot so you can do multiple spins without going off balance? Unless you're a complete natural (or related to Tony Blair) you'll have had to learn to do this, and that's not possible just from watching people. You have to be taught how to do it by going back to basics, which aren't taught in lessons or in most workshops.

    The only thing I would think on differently for practice to a competition would be presentation to an outside audience... And I don't dance for them: I dance for me and my partner.
    Nearly all of us dance for our partners, those that don't aren't really worth dancing with. And it's just because of this that I want to be better than I am at the moment. Doing competition makes me think about what I'm doing so I can improve and make the overall experience better for me and my partner.


    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch View Post
    I'm sure it's no coincidence that my favourite partners to dance with socially have nearly all competed, some at the highest levels. All of them enjoy playing around with the music and have fantastic musicality.
    Thank you Baruch, summed my points up nicely there

  18. #38
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    Re: Dance Competitions! What do u feel about them?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TheTramp
    Learn how to adjust your style to that of a new partner...
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Nope - that's what you want to achieve. Obviously.

    What I want to know is, how can you get there - apart from the obvious answer of dancing with lots of different people.

    In other words, what's a good way of self-improvement, that doesn't depend on having a (regular) dance partner?
    I think Paul F has got there if I recall some recent posts. Perhaps he could help here.

    For me the situation is this. I can lead more confidently, and adapt to different partners, when I know the moves/style I am trying to adopt very well.

    As I am still very much in the learning phase (14 months), I find I have a jumble of half learned styles/moves sloshing around in my head. To learn them better, I prefer to either:

    1. Dance 4 or 5 tracks in a row with a partner I get on with well with. By the 5th track I have usually achieved something I never managed before. Including making up new moves...
    2. Ask someone I get on well with to go through some move/style specifically until I get it, at least a bit better.

    Once I have learned it pretty well, I am much more capable of leading a 'stranger' who may be unfamiliar with the move/style, and may have a style which is working against what I am trying to do.

    I find if I dance one track each with different people all night, (especially if lots of beginners/arm jerkers), not only do I learn nothing, I find I have unlearned lots of things I was close to getting. I feel like I am going backwards. I do get a lot of satisfaction from successfully leading beginners who are responsive and appreciative, and often that's how I find new 'preferred' partners.

    Perhaps when I am more skilled/confident I can get more out of leading lots of strangers. At the moment, each dance I do with someone I don't click with is a lost opportunity to practise the stuff I have recently been taught.

    Which is a long winded way of saying, practising for competitions has improved my dancing dramatically, dancing with strangers has done very little (apart from finding new partners I connect well with). And dancing with experienced competitors is usually a dream, everything just 'works'. I find myself doing things I've never done before.

    Patrick

    PS Oh of course, it helps to have a plan. If there is some move/style I want to improve, I make a mental (or actual) note of it before a class/freestyle, and try it out as much as possible that night. But if its something I'm finding tricky, I can't do it with partners who are inexeperienced or don't follow well.
    Last edited by Patrick; 16th-October-2006 at 12:48 PM.

  19. #39
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    Re: Dance Competitions! What do u feel about them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blueshoes View Post
    OK, so can you spin properly? Spot so you can do multiple spins without going off balance?
    "properly?" I can spin. Without going off-balance. At the speed I want. Stopping in the correct orientation. On either foot. In either direction. Perhaps even double spin... Into tripples and my balance starts to go. I don't spot (but neither do ice-skaters).
    As to "properly", I don't know what that means? - I spin on the ball of my foot with knees slightly bent, weight committed to the one foot, posture is OK, feet are together during the spin, arms are controlled, finish the rotation before stepping again. Ask a ballet tutor and it would be apalling. Ask an AT tango teacher and it would be poor, probably without style as well. Ask a normal muggle and it's spot on.

    Unless you're a complete natural (or related to Tony Blair) you'll have had to learn to do this, and that's not possible just from watching people. You have to be taught how to do it by going back to basics, which aren't taught in lessons or in most workshops.
    Yes, I have had to learn how.
    I've been to at least one workshop that was soley 'sips and turns' And at least three others where a good proportion of time was spent on spinning and turning. I've been to begenner and intermediate workshops where quite a bit of time was spent on spinning and turning {In fact I think that my very first beginner workshop spent quite a bit of time on it}. In the 'essentials' class, every other one has a turn or spin in it. Every time I lead a lady spin/push spin/ceroc spin, I can practice my own spinning. Any time I transfer places with my partner, I can practice my own turns.

    What can I learn from watching people? Foot placement, body positioning, timeing, styling, things to avoid, ... "back to basics" - I don't think I've ever left basics.

    Doing competition makes me think about what I'm doing so I can improve and make the overall experience better for me and my partner.
    Dancing with people makes me want to do that. Hearing followers say X or Y is a good dancer makes me want to find out why and learn how to put it into my dancing. Seeing dancers connect and move to the music makes me want to learn how. You may need the motivation of a competition, but I see inspiration every time I dance.

    Practice, develop, compete, but please don't get blinkered into thinking that it's only those who compete who are driven to improve and/or are good dancers

  20. #40
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    Re: Dance Competitions! What do u feel about them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch View Post
    I'm sure it's no coincidence that my favourite partners to dance with socially have nearly all competed, some at the highest levels. All of them enjoy playing around with the music and have fantastic musicality.
    And I'm sure its no coincidence that some of the worst dnaces I've had in the last 6 months have been with dancers who have also been serious competitiors. Its been said many time sthat though competition can improve your dancing, the need to use choreographed elements can have an extremely detrimental effect of the ability of those dancers to properly 'lead and follow' outside their partnership. IMHO its not cut and dry. Some dancers improve with competition focus, some become worse as social dancers.

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