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Thread: The 'Frame'

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    The 'Frame'

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitebeard View Post
    On MHs point, can it be said there is a frame when the only connection is one hand to one hand ?
    Yes.

    But how do you explain what a "frame" actually is?
    {this is about my thirteenth attempt}

    Each bone in your body is joined to its neighbour via an articulated joint. In a relaxed state, that's all the joints do: hold the bones together. Move one and the others only move because they are attached.
    You can't dance like this (primaraly because you couldn't stand up, but ...) because any force given through the lead would simply move that bit it's pushing against and the rest would give way. Some people do actually try to dance like this - they try to follow the movement of the lead rather than the force applied through the lead. Some people are actually quite adept at it, but I find it really weird - like there's a time-delay between lead and follow.

    If you firm up the joints, lock them all in place as if your bones are all fused together, then any force given in the lead would move you like an inanimate object - push on the top and you would topple over, push one side away and you rotate. Some people try to dance like this - the lead has to pysically push and pull them to get them to move - that's very hard work and rarely worth the effort.

    A 'frame' is closer to the last one, but your joints aren't locked up; they are simply holding your bones in the pose you care to addopt. The joints act like a spider's web of senses by feeling the pressure applied. They also act to provide an opposing force that will prevent the frames' pose from being distorted.

    That's the frame.
    But the lead also must find ways of manipulating the frame and the pose(es) the follower addopts. How can a lead move an arm to the side without the follower's "frame" taking them to the side?
    Contradictory leading. Provide one lead that acts against another. Move the arm out, but provide another lead that prevents the 'frame' from moving with it. In the simplest terms, use the other hand to stop them moving.
    But how does the follower know which 'lead' to follow?

    The lead is providing a 'primary' lead and a 'secondary' lead. Both act together on the frame to move it. When moving the follower, they compliment each other. When stopping them, they act against each other. To move the follower's arm without moving them, the primary lead has to provide resistance against every direction that the secondary lead may indicate the follower's frame to move.
    This is a commanding lead that dictates exactly what you want the follower to do and where you want them to go. The follower moves as dictated by the balance between these two forces.

    But there is another, more subtle way of doing the same thing - use the connection between partners as the 'balance point'; each partner is providing one of the forces. The follower moves their frame to maintain that balance pont, the lead puts the connection off-balance to move them.

    The connection (balance point) between partners hands is the impact point of a sphere surrounding the follower. It's a sticky sphere like mime-artists stuck on either side of the bubble. The follower trys to maintain it's shape and always rotates their frame to face the lead hand.
    The lead can now push directly towards the followers' center and it will move them back. Push slightly off to one side, and they will rotate. The lead can move a hand over the sphere, but at the same time, must provide an opposing force to prevent the sphere rotating - moving the left hand to the left while providing a force to the right.
    The lead is now creating the two forces and balance point within the one connection of the hand; movement is saying move one way, force is saying move another: contradictory leading.
    Of course for this force to have any effect, the follower must have a frame to apply it to.

    The lead can dance (and dance quite well) without their own frame, but it is very "messy" in comparison and looks less controlled {*} You can also be a lot more subtle and smooth in your leading when you discover that you don't actually need to move your hand as much to move the follower - just move yourself - since the hand is part of your frame, it will move without any effort.


    For more about frame and connection, Franck runs a rather good 'focus' workshop where he expands the frame concept to provide more of an extension of your frame in the connection between you and your partner.

    {* I know this from my own dancing. A good follower with an excellent frame I can move wherever I want. But it's like a cub bouncing round a linoness - they look cool, I look manic. We both may have an excelent dance, but...}

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    Registered User Genie's Avatar
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    Re: The 'Frame'

    Wow, I had to read that three or four times for it to sink in. I must be really tired.

    I find it hard to 'think' about frame when I dance. For some reason it just makes me mess up. I find when I'm dancing with you though, that if we're travelling, frame doesn't happen...it's more... holding on. Which is ok, because then I'm thinking about anything. The moment I try and concentrate on pressure and position I make mistakes. Bah.

    This is a very difficult thing to grasp when you read it written/typed down. I think it's easier when someone can demonstrate.

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    Re: The 'Frame'

    Quote Originally Posted by Genie View Post
    This is a very difficult thing to grasp when you read it written/typed down. I think it's easier when someone can demonstrate.
    I wouldn't worry overmuch - it can be a hair-tearingly difficult thing to get the hang of, period - and it takes vast amounts of practice (one day, I'll get my frame sorted.... one day....) but the rewards are equally vast, which is why Gadget's taking such pains to try and explain it all.

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    Re: The 'Frame'

    Yes. I think it's wonderful of him. I appreciate how much time this takes him to write

    *hugs the Gadget*

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    Re: The 'Frame'

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    The lead can dance (and dance quite well) without their own frame, but it is very "messy" in comparison and looks less controlled
    This is sometimes referred to as an "arm lead". CTA-style MJ contains lots of arm leads, such as in the yo-yo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    You can also be a lot more subtle and smooth in your leading when you discover that you don't actually need to move your hand as much to move the follower - just move yourself - since the hand is part of your frame, it will move without any effort.
    This is sometimes referred to as a "body lead".

    I don't think a body lead allows me to give a smoother lead, particular. An arm lead can be just as smooth as a body lead. The points is rather that a body lead forces me to give a smoother lead. Because the lead comes from the way my body moves, 99% of the time it will be telling my follower to move in a way that her body can move, and in a way that is natural for a body to move. This makes it harder to give her a lead that is impossible for her to fulfill, and thus "yank" her.

    If a follower says "no" to my body lead, she is not only vetoing my lead, but she is also vetoing the movement of my body that generated the lead. This creates a different feel than when a follower vetoes an arm lead.

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    Re: The 'Frame'

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    This is sometimes referred to as an "arm lead". CTA-style MJ contains lots of arm leads, such as in the yo-yo.

    This is sometimes referred to as a "body lead".

    I don't think a body lead allows me to give a smoother lead, particular. An arm lead can be just as smooth as a body lead. The points is rather that a body lead forces me to give a smoother lead. Because the lead comes from the way my body moves, 99% of the time it will be telling my follower to move in a way that her body can move, and in a way that is natural for a body to move. This makes it harder to give her a lead that is impossible for her to fulfill, and thus "yank" her.

    If a follower says "no" to my body lead, she is not only vetoing my lead, but she is also vetoing the movement of my body that generated the lead. This creates a different feel than when a follower vetoes an arm lead.


    very well put Martin.

    I try to body lead when I want to define smooth structure, but often arm lead when we are playing together. Both have their places, infact i may drift between the two as i share the experience with my partener.

    Dynamo

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    Re: The 'Frame'

    one question that has always confused me. how can you do a body lead for the typical ceroc 'step back on one' at the start of a move?

    if the lead comes from my body, and my body is going back, then surely the lady must step forward?

    alex

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    Re: The 'Frame'

    Quote Originally Posted by alex View Post
    one question that has always confused me. how can you do a body lead for the typical ceroc 'step back on one' at the start of a move?

    if the lead comes from my body, and my body is going back, then surely the lady must step forward?

    alex
    You are correct on the step back opens you out where both arms extend aka arm lead.

    The body lead comes in more like when doing a 1st move, if you continue round CW towards your lady on your right and follow through with your body weigt, you have now stepped the lady back like in the start of Mambo steps.

    Body leads are when your arm stays a more constant length and the whole body weight moves, rather than the arm lead where the leader can potentially stay more static as the arm extends and contracts.

    Hope this helps

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    Re: The 'Frame'

    Quote Originally Posted by alex View Post
    one question that has always confused me. how can you do a body lead for the typical ceroc 'step back on one' at the start of a move?

    if the lead comes from my body, and my body is going back, then surely the lady must step forward?

    alex
    You can still lead height shifts, speed, weight transfer etc with your body.

    Amir has a version where the lead steps forwards rather than back

    HTH
    Christopher

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    Re: The 'Frame'

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    You can still lead height shifts, speed, weight transfer etc with your body.

    Amir has a version where the lead steps forwards rather than back

    HTH
    Christopher


    Said perfectly with far less words

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    Re: The 'Frame'

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    The lead can dance (and dance quite well) without their own frame, but it is very "messy" in comparison and looks less controlled
    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    This is sometimes referred to as an "arm lead". CTA-style MJ contains lots of arm leads, such as in the yo-yo.
    Not correct. Just because you lead it with the arm, doesn't mean you don't need frame to do it properly.

    I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the importance of engaging your abdominal muscles and pelvic floor in order to maintain a good frame.

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    Re: The 'Frame'

    Quote Originally Posted by alex View Post
    if the lead comes from my body, and my body is going back, then surely the lady must step forward?
    In my mind there are two types of body lead. In one, the movement of my body moves my hands, which creates a leading force that causes my partner to move. This is the type you're refering to here.
    In the other, I apply some force to lead my partner, and my partner provides an equal resistance force. My partner follows the force she is experiencing (and steps back), and I follow the force I am experiencing (and step back).
    In both cases, provided the motion of my body feels smooth and natural, it is likely that my partner will move in a way that feels smooth and natural to her.

    Quote Originally Posted by ESG
    Not correct. Just because you lead it with the arm, doesn't mean you don't need frame to do it properly.
    I'm not surprised I'm incorrect. Sadly, I don't understand what you're saying here. Could you elaborate?

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    Re: The 'Frame'

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    In my mind there are two types of body lead. In one, the movement of my body moves my hands, which creates a leading force that causes my partner to move. This is the type you're refering to here.
    In the other, I apply some force to lead my partner, and my partner provides an equal resistance force. My partner follows the force she is experiencing (and steps back), and I follow the force I am experiencing (and step back).
    In both cases, provided the motion of my body feels smooth and natural, it is likely that my partner will move in a way that feels smooth and natural to her.

    ....
    Know the phenomenon, just never though of it as a body lead, but you are right I just learn something new today.

    The most basic of this could be a beguiners side to side as you impart a resistance to step your partener back without need of elbow contact to form a block.

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    Re: The 'Frame'

    Quote Originally Posted by alex View Post
    one question that has always confused me. how can you do a body lead for the typical ceroc 'step back on one' at the start of a move?

    if the lead comes from my body, and my body is going back, then surely the lady must step forward?
    thanks to all for the responses.

    I think that a "frame" and a "body lead" are two different things that are often confused - the "frame" is what you move and what allows you to respond/move while dancing. A "body lead" is simply using your body's position and movement to provide a lead. A "body lead" is without physical contact. You can "body lead" without a frame.

    To lead a follower to step back without a physical lead, you have to 'convince' them that you are going to step into them. The simplest way is to step forward - invade their space. More tricky is to stay in the same spot, lift the ribcage slightly with a slight lean forward by transferring weight from heels/feet more towards the toes. This looks like you are preparing to take a step and the follower should step back. If you get it right and can time your movements right, then you can both step back together with no physical lead.

    There is a trick to all leading - hand or body leads - and that's to let the follower know what you are going to do before you do it. But it's really. really hard to get right all the time.
    To demonstrate, get into some 'mambo' steps. When the lead steps back on their left, it's going to be at 90º to the mambo path, taking the follower with them (anti-clockwise). The right now pushes through to turn another 90º and you have both swapped sides and are into the mambo walk again.

    With a good frame, the steps are quite easy to lead, and the lead can just 'scoop' the follower round on the pivot bit. This move is normally taught, demonstrated and executed by advocating the virtues of a good connection and feeling the compression in every contact point, etc.

    ...But this move can be led without any of that.

    To start with, the mambo steps should be executed maintaining equal distance and parallel shoulders with your partner. When the lead steps forward, they immediately lean back a bit with the left shoulder, opening the connection (without the 'stable' mambo bit first, this is less likely to be noticed). Now when they step back, they 'pull' the follower through the invisible connection with the shoulders. To lead forward again, the lead's shoulders start to rotate as the right foot lifts, the shoulders then pulling the rest of the lead's frame into line. *

    To do this it's a lot easier with a 'frame', because there is greater awareness of your own body's position and movement.

    That's how to use a body lead, but the best way to generate one is through your frame. A body lead is a visual thing that the follower has to pick up on (although there are some physical elements, they are bi-products of the frame used to generate it). It is independent to the physical lead which guides your partner.
    You can also use your frame to generate a physical lead, and as a bi-product of that, you may also be providing a reinforcing body lead.

    Which type of lead all depends on your connection with your partner and your intention as a lead. Sometimes the 'physical' may be dominant, sometimes the 'body lead'. Same as in a two handed move; sometimes the right is dominant, sometimes the left. More often than not they are working together to reinforce or provide contradictory leading.
    Very seldom do people focus on only one of these aspects at the exclusion of the other: air leading and blindfold leading are the two exercises used to develop each half independently.


    (*Note this same principle of pre-emptive leading can be used with a purely physical lead as well; I find that a body lead is useful to 'prepare' the follower for the physical lead. If I try to use a physical lead as preparation, I tend to lead out of time in front of the music - not saying it can't be done, just that I can't do it.)

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    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: The 'Frame'

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    I don't understand what you're saying here. Could you elaborate?
    I can try...

    You can lead a yo-yo without frame, in which case it might look messy or be less controlled - or you can lead it with frame, in which case it (with luck) will look tidy and controlled. I don't see that there's a causal relationship between an arm lead and "lack of frame".

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    Re: The 'Frame'

    Gadget, I don't mind saying this, but your post made me go cross-eyed. I think I shall just let you demonstrate on me

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    Re: The 'Frame'

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo View Post
    I can try...

    You can lead a yo-yo without frame, in which case it might look messy or be less controlled - or you can lead it with frame, in which case it (with luck) will look tidy and controlled. I don't see that there's a causal relationship between an arm lead and "lack of frame".


    I think what our honourable donkey (has anyone made the smart-ass joke yet? Surely they must have...it's too obvious ) is trying to say is that you want to have good posture and control of your centre with all moves.

    With some moves your posture (frame) is directly connected with your partners so the pair of you will move as a single unit in a nice smooth fashion. Think manhattens or columbians.

    With other moves you don't have the same degree of contact across your whole frame, but if you're still holding it then you still have that connection between your bodies. The movement is smoother as a result of that connection (lead/follow is much easier) and because you have much better control of your balance when correctly framed. Think yo-yo's or ceroc spins.

    I see virtually everything as a body lead to a large degree, but that has more to do with my personal definition what body and arm leads actually are than anything else. It's more a shde-of-grey issue than a black-and-white one to me.

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    Re: The 'Frame'

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo View Post

    I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the importance of engaging your abdominal muscles and pelvic floor in order to maintain a good frame.
    Indeed, there are people who are aware of the importance of having a frame but it remains only in their arms - to the point where both arms don't always seem to be 'connected' (hold by a frame), it's like 2 bits of frame both starting at the shoulder joint and finishing in the finger tips. Like a picture frame with the vertical bits in wood and the horizontal ones in wool. It works to some extent - you can lead a follower this way - but it will never be as effective as a 'real' frame throughout the body.

    A way to 'find your frame' is to stand at your tallest, lifting your shoulders up then moving them back and down. You'll find that to maintain that posture it is required to have some tension in your abdominal and pelvic muscles as ESG said. What is difficult (at least I find it very difficult) is too maintain that frame throughout the dance without 'locking' your joints. For example I know that very often if pulled in (follower) RH to LH (as in the beginning of a WCS pattern) I tend to 'give' my right shoulder more than I should if I had a proper frame. This will take years of practice I suspect...

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    Re: The 'Frame'

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo View Post
    You can lead a yo-yo without frame, in which case it might look messy or be less controlled - or you can lead it with frame, in which case it (with luck) will look tidy and controlled.
    Interesting.
    The reason I mentioned the yo-yo is the "step in" portion of it, where the guy's right arm is folded across his chest, and his right hand is by his left shoulder. To me this looks like the guy has to lose frame in his right arm at that point in the move. Is that incorrect?

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    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: The 'Frame'

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Interesting.
    The reason I mentioned the yo-yo is the "step in" portion of it, where the guy's right arm is folded across his chest, and his right hand is by his left shoulder. To me this looks like the guy has to lose frame in his right arm at that point in the move. Is that incorrect?
    I think it's down to micro-definitions of 'frame'. He still needs to lead the lady to step forward at the very start of that motion, and he still needs to maintain his own body-tension. It's an interesting question as to whether he's disconnecting then reconnecting in some way. But for the turn out, I'd say there's very much a need for frame.

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