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Thread: Employment law

  1. #21
    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Employment law

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    It is nasty, because it's kicking you when you're down - by definition, you're not exactly at your best when you're ill.

    It's also short-sighted, because it gives off the message "We don't care about our employees".

    And it means that you may be throwing away valuable talent simply to save a few weeks' salary. When recruiting a new employee typically costs several thousand pounds, and training them up to speed costs thousands more pounds.

    There's a reason most successful companies are also benevolent companies - because that approach motivates their staff.
    It *may* be short-sited, or it may give off a welcome message to other members of staff who may be angry that one of their colleagues is always off 'sick' while they themselves work very hard to cover that's person's absence - that the company takes a dim view of people who for whatever reason can't pull their weight.

    You may be throwing away talent - and again you may not.

    And some successful companies can afford to be benevolent; but a small firm that has one (out of say a total of three) empmloyees off sick repeatedly due to a chronic illness that shows no sign of improvement month on month - or year upon year - may not.

    So it rather depends.

  2. #22
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Employment law

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo View Post
    And some successful companies can afford to be benevolent; but a small firm that has one (out of say a total of three) empmloyees off sick repeatedly due to a chronic illness that shows no sign of improvement month on month - or year upon year - may not..
    We're not talking about chronic illness here - that's a different matter.

    And I'm not exactly a wishy-washy liberal "let's all be nice to everyone" hippy, and I do appreciate that small companies are very sensitive to individual set-backs.

    But proper management should be able to distinguish between someone who's taking the mick, and someone who has a genuine and temporary condition.

  3. #23
    Registered User Blueshoes's Avatar
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    Re: Employment law

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    But proper management should be able to distinguish between someone who's taking the mick, and someone who has a genuine and temporary condition.
    We have one employee who's attended her mother's funeral three times that we know of.... And I've spoken to her mother on the phone since and carefully remarked on how well she sounded.....

  4. #24
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Employment law

    Quote Originally Posted by Blueshoes View Post
    We have one employee who's attended her mother's funeral three times that we know of.... And I've spoken to her mother on the phone since and carefully remarked on how well she sounded.....
    Why do you continue to employ a liar?
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

  5. #25
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    Re: Employment law

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    You have my sympathy - I know what it feels like. But the main thing to focus on is getting well. Once you're healthy, every other problem is manageable.

    And good luck of course!

    Thanks!

    You're absolutely right on the getting-well front. Been told two weeks (minimum) off work (inconvenient, but not terrible), plus six months for a full recovery

    Which means a long period of no dancing
    Which really isn't good, since we'll be starting teaching in Jan (not that there's ever a convenient time for something like this). So I am exploring my options for speeding the recovery up - I've spent the summer working on fitness, and will be stepping that up... plus (as Barry would advocate ) I'm looking at alternative health methods to help the recovery along (Reiki, accupuncture & others are on my list at the moment)

  6. #26
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Employment law

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Why do you continue to employ a liar?
    My thoughts exactly.

    Sorry, but that's a clear case of deception - disciplinary action would be mandated, surely? Nothing to do with the case of someone who's got a genuine condition.

  7. #27
    Registered User Divissima's Avatar
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    Re: Employment law

    I would recommend the TUC and Citizens' Advice Bureau as good sources of advice on employment related issues, Stray. I have found them to be very helpful in the past and it is always good to know your rights.

  8. #28
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    Re: Employment law

    Thanks again for all the advice on this one...

    The Evil Pointy-Haired Boss(TM) has just had a word and said it'll be covered (just this once) by the company... I intend to reciprocate the favour by getting well as fast as possible (but no - I won't be going back to work before I'm ready)

  9. #29
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    Re: Employment law

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    My thoughts exactly.

    Sorry, but that's a clear case of deception - disciplinary action would be mandated, surely? Nothing to do with the case of someone who's got a genuine condition.
    Interestingly, it isn't always easy to fire someone, even in an instance like this - and many employers are somewhat over-cautious when it comes to firing. Last time we did, it was after a painstaking process of logging all the mistakes & deceptions, official warnings, assistance and extra training, etc etc etc - basically so the company could say that it did everything in its power to help the guy do his job & be honest before taking the final step (and yes, there was a genuine hope that he'd come good before we got that far).

    Too cautious? Maybe - but I can understand why.

    Stray

  10. #30
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Employment law

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    Interestingly, it isn't always easy to fire someone, even in an instance like this
    I didn't say fire, I said "disciplinary" - I know firing is tricky in many organisations, and rightly so IMO. But there should be a clear disciplinary process - at the least, something like that (3 mother's funerals) would merit a recorded warning, I'd imagine.

    I there's no disciplinary action after that sort of abuse, what would you have to do to get disciplined? Shoot someone?

  11. #31
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    Re: Employment law

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    I there's no disciplinary action after that sort of abuse, what would you have to do to get disciplined? Shoot someone?
    Tried that a few times*. Management didn't seem to have a problem with it at all!

    Stray
    *OK - so I was using an airzooka, but still.

  12. #32
    Registered User Tessalicious's Avatar
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    Re: Employment law

    I've got one for you clever people - my friend (no, really) has just started a new job about 3 weeks ago at a very new company. She was told yesterday that she hasn't been given a contract because she doesn't need one, that they are going to pay her by cheque until they get round to setting up a bank transfer system and just 'put what they agreed in writing' rather than making up a contract. What's the difference between that and a proper contract, and is that allowed?

  13. #33
    Ceroc Teacher CentrAlex's Avatar
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    Exclamation Re: Employment law

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    Evil pointy-haired boss....
    What I'm being told at present is that we don't have a policy (yet) (we're a small company, and this is a first). Initial investigation suggests three days on no pay, followed by the rest on minimum 'sick leave' payrates (70 quid a week)

    Seems a tad... harsh.
    As far as I can remember from my college days...they can't give you 3 days with no pay if you are signed off because of an operation.

    I would suggest to find a local solicitor in employment law...they usually do the first hour free when giving advice...try it out

  14. #34
    Ceroc Teacher CentrAlex's Avatar
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    Re: Employment law

    Quote Originally Posted by Tessalicious View Post
    I've got one for you clever people - my friend (no, really) has just started a new job about 3 weeks ago at a very new company. She was told yesterday that she hasn't been given a contract because she doesn't need one, that they are going to pay her by cheque until they get round to setting up a bank transfer system and just 'put what they agreed in writing' rather than making up a contract. What's the difference between that and a proper contract, and is that allowed?
    With no contract there is no legally binding agreement between employer and employee so if at anytime they want her to leave the company for whatever reason they could just tell your friend to leave as there is no contract to say that the employer must give your friend any notice etc etc...but it works both ways...they could leave a a seconds notice as they are not bound to anything.

    On another point...if your friend wanted to take the company to an employment tribunal...it would probably fail as the company could just turn round and say that they were not an employee of the company.

    There must also be some tax implications here with regards to pay as well...if they are only geting a cheque and no pay slip to say that their earnings are being recorded on PAYE etc then the lovely Inland Revenue could come back and sting them for not paying tax and NI...I think - not really that hot on tax etc but maybe your friend should check it out!

    If it was me...I would definitely want a contract no matter what as it essentially protects all parties involved.

  15. #35
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    Re: Employment law

    Quote Originally Posted by CentrAlex View Post
    As far as I can remember from my college days...they can't give you 3 days with no pay if you are signed off because of an operation.

    I would suggest to find a local solicitor in employment law...they usually do the first hour free when giving advice...try it out
    Well, according to my contract, various bits of research, and other forum members, they can indeed...

    Thankfully, they're not doing that in this instance.

  16. #36
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    Re: Employment law

    Two useful sites

    For employers and employees

    http://www.acas.org.uk/


    http://www.dti.gov.uk/employment/index.html

    If you are an employer I suggest you join the local Business Link


    http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/directory

  17. #37
    Ceroc Teacher CentrAlex's Avatar
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    Re: Employment law

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    Well, according to my contract, various bits of research, and other forum members, they can indeed...

    Thankfully, they're not doing that in this instance.
    I stand corrected

  18. #38
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Employment law

    Quote Originally Posted by Tessalicious View Post
    I've got one for you clever people - my friend (no, really) has just started a new job about 3 weeks ago at a very new company. She was told yesterday that she hasn't been given a contract because she doesn't need one, that they are going to pay her by cheque until they get round to setting up a bank transfer system and just 'put what they agreed in writing' rather than making up a contract. What's the difference between that and a proper contract, and is that allowed?
    Errr, that pretty much is a proper contract.

    The paperwork of contracts - like all paperwork really - is only required if there's a misunderstanding or dispute.

    Technically, if she's being employed, she has a contract. She certainly doesn't need a paper contract in order to be paid though - it has nothing to do with the method of payment.

    Quote Originally Posted by CentrAlex View Post
    With no contract there is no legally binding agreement between employer and employee
    Sorry, but whether the contract is written down or not, there is a contract - i.e. an agreement to employ. That's what a contract is - an agreement.

    Quote Originally Posted by CentrAlex View Post
    On another point...if your friend wanted to take the company to an employment tribunal...it would probably fail as the company could just turn round and say that they were not an employee of the company.
    Somewhat difficult to do that if she's got bank records of payment, not to mention actual evidence of working there - any company dumb enough to try that would almost certainly lose.

    Quote Originally Posted by CentrAlex View Post
    There must also be some tax implications here with regards to pay as well...if they are only geting a cheque and no pay slip to say that their earnings are being recorded on PAYE etc then the lovely Inland Revenue could come back and sting them for not paying tax and NI...I think - not really that hot on tax etc but maybe your friend should check it out!
    Again, companies have legal obligations to pay people properly - and the Inland Revenue tend to get shirty about companies not paying taxes for some reason...

    Tessa's friend's tax should be sorted by PAYE, so she shouldn't have to worry about it at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by CentrAlex View Post
    If it was me...I would definitely want a contract no matter what as it essentially protects all parties involved.
    A written record of the terms of employment is very useful, yes. But that's not the contract, that's just the description of the contract.
    Last edited by David Bailey; 13th-October-2006 at 12:50 PM. Reason: Can't spell "somewhat", that'll teach me to try and be clever...

  19. #39
    Registered User Tessalicious's Avatar
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    Re: Employment law

    Ok, DJ, I think you're basically trying to tell me that there's not a problem here - thanks, that's good to know, I'll pass it on and she can stop panicking that something's going to go horibly wrong.

  20. #40
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Employment law

    Quote Originally Posted by Tessalicious View Post
    Ok, DJ, I think you're basically trying to tell me that there's not a problem here
    Basically, yes

    Quote Originally Posted by Tessalicious View Post
    - thanks, that's good to know, I'll pass it on and she can stop panicking that something's going to go horibly wrong.
    The only thing she should worry about is whether she gets paid - and OK, whether the company is truly as clueless as it sounds regarding employment law.

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