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Thread: To successfully compete takes .....

  1. #41
    Registered User Patrick's Avatar
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    Re: To successfully compete takes .....

    Quote Originally Posted by cerocmetro View Post
    I still have one big problem with Modern JIve competitions, "what are we judging?"

    My point is that unless we have a definition of what the moves are and what the style is, it is all very subjective.
    Yes, but dance is an art, not a science, so whether a dance is 'good' or not is bound to be subjective to some extent. Which is why there are several judges on the panel, who will hopefully come to a consensus based on current perceptions of what a good dance looks like. Doesn't always work of couse, eg the current tendency to prefer flash moves over musicality.

    The closest we have come to a fair competition is the beginners moves only in the Champs this year. At least it was clear what the moves were supposed to be.
    I actually find the rules around Ceroc X to be the least clear of all. If I recall, you actually get disqualified if you don't stick to the set moves. But how much musical interpretation can you put on, say a First Move, before the judges say it's not a First Move any more? I've no idea, and probably wouldn't enter Ceroc X unless I was clearer about this. Innovation good, but disqualification bad!

    I am not sure what other dance comps are so open about the moves and style.
    I understand that in ballroom competitions, there is a very precise expectation of the moves and how they should be executed. The downside of this is that it discourages innovation, encourages stagnation. (as in the film "Strictly Ballroom") One of the great things about Ceroc is that the moves and styles continually develop, and absorb bits from other dance forms. If the expectation in MJ competitions were too precisely defined, it would discourage innovation.

    Having said that, it helps to know who the judges are at any given comp in Ceroc/modern JIve. Some judges prefer big moves, some style technique. Some care about dancing on the beat some dont think it is important.

    Some comps have non modern jive judges. What are they looking for?
    True. If you are clever, you will adapt what you do according to who is judging. But hopefully, a well balanced panel will come to a generally acceptable conclusion. Mostly!

    In my mind to win a modern jive comp takes, a good chemistry between the partners, some nice unique moves, a good presence and a lot of luck.
    Adam
    I think the luck element must be a large part of the excitement. If the luck element were not there, the results would usually be a foregone conclusion. Eg, the most skilled, best prepared couple would always win. Not very exciting. As it is, there's always the chance that the judges will see the hotshots mistakes, and miss yours! Or just be bowled over by your costume and smile...
    Patrick

  2. #42
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: To successfully compete takes .....

    Quote Originally Posted by cerocmetro View Post
    The closest we have come to a fair competition is the beginners moves only in the Champs this year. At least it was clear what the moves were supposed to be.
    Ahh, you're just saying that because the winners were Finchley-ites

    I'd say the closest to a "fair" competition is a rolling DWAS - but then it all hinges on what you define as fair.

    Quote Originally Posted by cerocmetro View Post
    Having said that, it helps to know who the judges are at any given comp in Ceroc/modern JIve. Some judges prefer big moves, some style technique. Some care about dancing on the beat some dont think it is important.
    That sounds sensible - knowing the dance background of the judges helps, I presume.

    Quote Originally Posted by cerocmetro View Post
    Some comps have non modern jive judges. What are they looking for?
    - why have Britrock got the SDF finallist as a judge?

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
    Doesn't always work of couse, eg the current tendency to prefer flash moves over musicality.
    I'm pretty sure that tendency (such as it is) has been around for, well, ever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
    I actually find the rules around Ceroc X to be the least clear of all. If I recall, you actually get disqualified if you don't stick to the set moves. But how much musical interpretation can you put on, say a First Move, before the judges say it's not a First Move any more? I've no idea, and probably wouldn't enter Ceroc X unless I was clearer about this. Innovation good, but disqualification bad!
    I think Ceroc X is much clearer than any other competition - whether it's "fairer" is open to debate of course - in that you get a set of moves you can do. If you then decide to experiment and push the boundaries, that's your choice; you may be rewarded or penalised, but that's why they call it experimentation.

  3. #43
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: To successfully compete takes .....

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    I think Ceroc X is much clearer than any other competition - whether it's "fairer" is open to debate of course - in that you get a set of moves you can do. If you then decide to experiment and push the boundaries, that's your choice; you may be rewarded or penalised, but that's why they call it experimentation.
    OK ... maybe we have a choice.

    a) Declare that Ceroc dance is a very limited dance form, limited to only the basic moves per the CTA handbook and ignore the last 20 years of fusion with the more establishes 'proper' dance styles

    OR

    b) Accept that MJ is now a hybrid dance form that has outstripped the knowledge of his originators and that MOST CTA instructors no longer are at the cutting edge and so we need to find a new source of judges.

    I find it interesting that MJ is the only (AFAIK) competition art form where regularly some of the judges have far less competition or dance experience than the competitors they are judging.

    OK ... I know that may be an extreme view (and slightly off thread) but I feel that the quality of decision is directly proportionate to the quality of judges. I would love to see the line up of
    • Dave Barker
    • Lily Barker
    • Viktor
    • Kate
    • Amir
    • Sue Freeman
    • Roger Chin
    • Phil Webb
    These people have competed/coached/developed MJ and their range and differing viewpoints would surely lead to a better decision .... once of course they had agreed on what MJ was ...

  4. #44
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: To successfully compete takes .....

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    a) Declare that Ceroc dance is a very limited dance form, limited to only the basic moves per the CTA handbook and ignore the last 20 years of fusion with the more establishes 'proper' dance styles
    I was referring to the "Ceroc X" (or "Ceroc Basics") competition only, not to any others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    I find it interesting that MJ is the only (AFAIK) competition art form where regularly some of the judges have far less competition or dance experience than the competitors they are judging.
    If that's true (and I'm not sure if it is - got any data?), then maybe that just reflects tha paucity and newness of most MJ competitions.

    If the MJ community wanted to get serious about judging, I presume there should be some kind of judge-training programme...

  5. #45
    Not a spoon! Lou's Avatar
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    Re: To successfully compete takes .....

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    I would love to see the line up of
    • Dave Barker
    • Lily Barker
    • Viktor
    • Kate
    • Amir
    That's not all that far off the typical Weston-Super-Mare Competition judges list.... (Ok, so you get Carol Haines instead of Viktor , and Will instead of Amir... )

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