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Thread: To successfully compete takes .....

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    To successfully compete takes .....

    OK ... back to the old ODA ways .......

    Had a mad 20 minutes over the weekend when I thought seriously about getting back into competing ..... so, being a sad analyst I am I decided to look at what the criteria is to win and how best to achieve it. (PS .. much of this is based on review of dance competition vid and chats with some judges/dance coaches)

    REQUIREMENTS (not weighted)
    • Ability to dance in time to music (some of the time)
    • Look good (whatever that really means)
    • Ability to throw partner into BIG MOVES on a regular basis
    • Ability to make sure judges are watching the BIG MOVES

    ...... urrr, thats about it

    HOW TO ACHIEVE THAT
    • Female partner needs to have a 'proper' dance background
    • Need to dance about 4 times a week
    • Need to practice at least 5 hours a week with partner
    • Need to develop/acquire/plagiarise seriously flash moves


    Think the key thing that struck me was just how much time and effort you need to commit if you're serious about making it OK ... the above list isn't as comprehensive as i could be but I seriously think it covers the key elements. Any views?

    PS Note that the male dancer doesn't have to start off as being a star themselves. There are a number of really good competing males who were fairly average when they started getting serious about competing.

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    Registered User Patrick's Avatar
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    Re: To successfully compete takes .....

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    OK ... back to the old ODA ways .......

    Had a mad 20 minutes over the weekend when I thought seriously about getting back into competing ..... so, being a sad analyst I am I decided to look at what the criteria is to win and how best to achieve it. (Think the key thing that struck me was just how much time and effort you need to commit if you're serious about making it .
    You have overlooked the key requirement... Actually having a partner!

    I have an Intermediates entry for Britrock going begging if anyone interested, my partner has pre-comp nerves.

    Also, winning isn't necessarily the objective. I'm looking to improve my dancing and have an exciting time. I don't expect to win anything. Not yet anyway!

    And you don't have to spend ages practising. I've got past the first round with different partners each time, with just a few hours practice. Or less... It does need at least one of you to be experienced though.

    Patrick

    BTW, you forgot Hitting the Breaks, basic musical interpretation even at intermediate level. Essential.
    Last edited by Patrick; 11th-October-2006 at 10:01 AM.

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    Registered User Trousers's Avatar
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    Re: To successfully compete takes .....

    A more than average portion of vanity.














    allegedly!


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    Teacher Paul F's Avatar
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    Re: To successfully compete takes .....

    This may be a little OTT for some people but I would reccommend the book "Dance to your maximum" by Maximiliaan Winkelhuis.

    Although geared towards competing in ballroom comps (one of the very few good ones around) it goes into detail about practice sessions, planning as well as consistent factors across all competitions - audience, judges and so on.
    Most of it pobably wont translate to MJ comps (not having done any MJ comps I wouldnt know) but some of it will be useful.

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: To successfully compete takes .....

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
    And you don't have to spend ages practising. I've got past the first round with different partners each time, with just a few hours practice. Or less... It does need at least one of you to be experienced though.
    Urrrr .. the thread was about SUCCESSFULL competition ... i.e. getting placed. I know how much time the likes of Phil & Yuko, Will & Kate and Simon & Nicole put in ....

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
    BTW, you forgot Hitting the Breaks, basic musical interpretation even at intermediate level. Essential.
    No, didn't forget ... I've reviewed the tapes .... musical interpretation ISN'T a key success factor!

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    Registered User Patrick's Avatar
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    Re: To successfully compete takes .....

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Urrrr .. the thread was about SUCCESSFULL competition ... i.e. getting placed. I know how much time the likes of Phil & Yuko, Will & Kate and Simon & Nicole put in ....

    No, didn't forget ... I've reviewed the tapes .... musical interpretation ISN'T a key success factor!
    OK, point taken. Just that my criteria for success don't include winning, at the moment, as I know I haven't reached that standard. Getting to a semifinal is success enough for me at the mo!

    As it happensI just had some private competition coaching from well known teachers/competitors/judges at Breeze this weekend. One conclusion I made is that since different judges have different criteria, whatever you do can't be guaranteed to impress everybody.

    I was told a story of well known couple who threw as much time/mony/effort into prep as you can imagine, "should" have won, but didn't...

    For these judges, musical interpreation was key, they would be unlikely to promote someone to the next round if they danced through a break, even at first round intermediate level. But I also know some couples have won with poor interpretation, to the chagrin of many judges!

    The judging criteria and method are well known and published anyway - they're on the Britrock website.

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    Re: To successfully compete takes .....

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Urrrr .. the thread was about SUCCESSFULL competition
    No need to take this tone, the same arguments surely apply to the pre-success phase.
    musical interpretation ISN'T a key success factor!
    In my extremely limited experience of MJ comps, some of the music seemed to have been chosen to prevent any musical interpretation inadvertently taking place.

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    Re: To successfully compete takes .....

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    No, didn't forget ... I've reviewed the tapes .... musical interpretation ISN'T a key success factor!
    Depends on who's judging! Lots of judges have different criteria!

    I judged recently in the Brisbane competition. In one category of the DWAS (they have different levels for DWAS there, as well as the leads and follows being judged independantly in the earlier rounds), I was consistantly marking down one girl who was dancing completely off the beat. Yet she kept getting through.

    I spoke to a well-known (even over here) fellow judge about it, who admitted that she was dancing off the beat, but commented on her lovely style! I think that she got to the final - definately to the semi-final!

    When I'm judging, style and musicality definitely impress me over flashy moves. Unfortunately, as Gus says, that isn't always the case. Maybe it's why I don't get asked to judge over here in the big competitions!

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    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: To successfully compete takes .....

    I think animated facial expressions and being slightly extrovert, so as to be able to engage with the judges, audience and each other, gets couples noticed and keeps people's attention on them, also, I think spectacularly sparkly costumes do help, even if its just for something to be remembered by
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    Re: To successfully compete takes .....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I think animated facial expressions and being slightly extrovert, so as to be able to engage with the judges, audience and each other, gets couples noticed and keeps people's attention on them, also, I think spectacularly sparkly costumes do help, even if its just for something to be remembered by
    Yes, sparkly costumes are nice. I came perilously close to actually wearing sequins last time... fortunately the costume wasn't quite ready! (I once told friends that if I start wearing sequins, I've really lost it...)

    One judges top tip was £100 of good coaching gets you more chance of winning than £100 of glitter...

    But even £1,000,000 of coaching doesn't guarantee winning.

    (If you're that flush, you could try bribing the panel. That never happens in real life does it? )

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    Re: To successfully compete takes .....

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
    O

    I was told a story of well known couple who threw as much time/mony/effort into prep as you can imagine, "should" have won, but didn't...
    Who was that then?

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    Re: To successfully compete takes .....

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    Who was that then?
    It was that chap Gus...

    Fortunately, I don't remember which of the mega famous couples it was, But its probably happened to them all. Even Phil and Yuko don't win every time.

    What I learn from that:- its a mistake to make Winning your primary criterion for success.

    You will end up disappointed most of the time. You will probably fall out with your partner. You will spend all of your time and money on chasing something which won't make you happy!

    (My fave tune just came on the radio!... If I can get a fab new partner 2nite and practice 24 hrs a day, we may still be in with a chance of winning Brit Rock on Sat!) OTOH, I may go visit my mum. And chat up Fletch a bit more...

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: To successfully compete takes .....

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
    OK, point taken. Just that my criteria for success don't include winning, at the moment, as I know I haven't reached that standard. Getting to a semifinal is success enough for me at the mo!
    So what, you're aiming to be a semi-finalist? Sorry, but the ultimate "competition success" is "winning" - the further you get, the more successful you are. So I think the thread title is pretty clear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
    As it happensI just had some private competition coaching from well known teachers/competitors/judges at Breeze this weekend. One conclusion I made is that since different judges have different criteria, whatever you do can't be guaranteed to impress everybody.
    Absolutely true, everyone's different, and even more so in MJ than other dances I reckon, because it's such a loose dance with so many different influences. Is a WCS-style couple "better" than a Jango-style couple, or a Ceroc-classic-style couple?

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
    The judging criteria and method are well known and published anyway - they're on the Britrock website.
    This, to me, is the most important crtierion - know the rules. Know the "hoops" you have to go through for each competition, and work towards those hoops.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: To successfully compete takes .....

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post

    REQUIREMENTS (not weighted)
    • Ability to dance in time to music (some of the time)
    • Look good (whatever that really means)
    • Ability to throw partner into BIG MOVES on a regular basis
    • Ability to make sure judges are watching the BIG MOVES
    This list seems bang on the money to me. I'd add the "Know the rules" point, but I think that summarises most of the key criteria.

    Basic dance ability, attention to visuals, crowd-pleasers and attention-grabbing techniques - sums it up to me.

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    Registered User Patrick's Avatar
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    Re: To successfully compete takes .....

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Think the key thing that struck me was just how much time and effort you need to commit if you're serious about making it OK ... the above list isn't as comprehensive as i could be but I seriously think it covers the key elements. Any views?

    .
    Hi Gus. OK serious answer. I don't think your list is anywhere near the mark, and I don't have the time to respond properly. Though here's acouple of points.

    If you are really serious about winning, you don't have to spend lots of time and money, but you do need to be cute. For instance, you need to know who will be on the judging panel, what they are looking for individually, and play to them specifically.

    Also, unless your freestyle skills are awesome, it helps to know who the DJ will be and the kind of music they will play. Those in the know will be practising to the tracks they know are likely to be played.

    I'm not that serious! (yet)

    Patrick

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    Registered User Patrick's Avatar
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    Re: To successfully compete takes .....

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    So what, you're aiming to be a semi-finalist? Sorry, but the ultimate "competition success" is "winning" - the further you get, the more successful you are. So I think the thread title is pretty clear.
    I absolutely don't agree! I refer the honourable gentleman to my subsequent post #12. At the moment I would be quite satisfied with semi in a national comp, delighted if I got to the final. A great success. I would be deluding myself if I thought I could win a national comp on 1 years experience. But next year, who knows?

    I can easily imagine going through Int, Adv, Showcase, and Open levels, and never being placed once. Would I have failed? Yes winning would be nice. Final also nice. Semi final nice. OK, going out first heat is a bit pants. But I do think it's a big mistake to make winning your main objective. Setting youself up for a fall.
    Last edited by Patrick; 11th-October-2006 at 01:32 PM.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: To successfully compete takes .....

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
    I absolutely don't agree! I refer the honourable gentleman to my subsequent post #12.

    I can easily imagine going through Int, Adv, Showcase, and Open levels, and never being placed once. Would I have failed? Yes winning would be nice. Final also nice. Semi final nice. OK, going out first heat is a bit pants. But I do think it's a big mistake to make it your main objective. Setting youself up for a fall.
    Sorry, I still don't see it. Competitions are, err, competitive - you're trying to win, you're aiming to win, you want to beat the others and be number one. Or have I missed some fundamental point here?

    It's like saying "I'm a social gambler" - proper gamblers love social gamblers, they're also called "suckers"...

    On a different note, the Britrock competition has a massive amount of information on the judging system - see http://www.jivelive.com/britrock/judging.html. It's probably worth looking at that as a good starting template, although it doesn't look as if the proposed "rolling DWAS" system will be implemented, unfortunately.

    Actually, a third point - how could you best prepare to enter a DWAS competition, especially a rolling one? That's an interesting question I think...

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    Re: To successfully compete takes .....

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Sorry, I still don't see it. Competitions are, err, competitive - you're trying to win, you're aiming to win, you want to beat the others and be number one. Or have I missed some fundamental point here?
    Yes.

    If only the people who realistically thought that they were in with a serious chance of winning actually competed, the competitions would be a lot smaller than they currently are. And would probably stop running after the first year with massive losses.

    People compete for a lot of reasons other than winning: For fun. To measure themselves against the majority of people (ie. not just the winners). For experience. To do better than they did previously. Because they like the 'show-off' feeling of competing.

    In fact, I'd say, if most people are realistic about their chances of winning, then most AREN'T competing to win.

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    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: To successfully compete takes .....

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    So what, you're aiming to be a semi-finalist? Sorry, but the ultimate "competition success" is "winning" - the further you get, the more successful you are. So I think the thread title is pretty clear.
    Nope – the thread title says "successfully compete", not "competition success".

    To successfully compete, you need to have a partner, enter the competition, pay the money, turn up on the day, make your way to the dance floor at the appropriate time and dance while the music plays – and there you go you've successfully managed to compete!

    But of course, that's not the question Gus asked. He was interested in "what the criteria is to win and how best to achieve it."

    Someone once told me that in the intermediate competition, the judges expect flashy moves. In the advanced competition, they expect musicality. And in the open category they want flashy moves done with musicality.

    Not sure of the validity of this. I'd much rather musicality was expected and rewarded in all categories above flashiness, but that may be because that's where my strengths lie...
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Registered User Patrick's Avatar
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    Re: To successfully compete takes .....

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Nope – the thread title says "successfully compete", not "competition success".

    Someone once told me that in the intermediate competition, the judges expect flashy moves. In the advanced competition, they expect musicality. And in the open category they want flashy moves done with musicality.

    Not sure of the validity of this. I'd much rather musicality was expected and rewarded in all categories above flashiness, but that may be because that's where my strengths lie...
    The standard of some couples entering Intermediates is so high that you need flashy moves with musicality, even to win intermediates. At higher levels, you need moves nobody has ever done before.

    But you are right. The judging criteria don't have musicality as the No.1 priority, which it should be in many peoples opinion. I know one judge who excluded a couple at the first heat, who usually win. They asked why. "Well, when you came out of that fancy drop, you weren't on the beat". Sadly, on big judging panels, common sense doesn't always prevail.

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