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Thread: fixed partners

  1. #21
    Ceroc Teacher Dazzler's Avatar
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    Re: fixed partners

    Quote Originally Posted by trouble View Post
    This will mean travelling and trying new functions as often as possible. got to go find that adventurous dancer and fantastic lead cause they clearly arn't gonna come and find me.
    You could always try out the scene up here in Scotland i know its a huge distance to travel but you may find that scottish dancers have a different style which may help you to progress

    Either way i wish you all the best in your progression

  2. #22
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: fixed partners

    Quote Originally Posted by trouble View Post
    Ladies Styling in ceroc/Jive is not something i have come across much at all.
    Ceroc teaching is all about the moves, which are male-led; so classes are always taught from a male point of view.

    OK, to be fair, most partner dances are taught like that - but most other dances will talk about what the follower should do.

    The problem with the demo being only a demo (and not a teacher) is that ladies have to infer how to put style into their moves. Even the female Ceroc teachers don't talk much about women's styling - most of their style points are still directed to the man.

    Quote Originally Posted by trouble View Post
    In Salsa i find it all the time. isnt that strange or is it me.
    Some ladies in salsa could do with a bit less styling, and a bit more rhythm / following. Don't get me started on salsa bloody shines, it's not pretty.

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    Re: fixed partners

    Some ladies in salsa could do with a bit less styling, and a bit more rhythm / following. Don't get me started on salsa bloody shines, it's not pretty. [/QUOTE]


    really,, i always found Salsa Shines wonderful if they are done well and ive always found plenty of advice for us ladies when being taught on Styling.....tell me What is it you dont like about them,, i sometimes incorporate moves i have learnt in Salsa into my Ceroc dancing and i think it can look quite cute.....!!!

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    Re: fixed partners

    Quote Originally Posted by Dazzler View Post
    You could always try out the scene up here in Scotland i know its a huge distance to travel but you may find that scottish dancers have a different style which may help you to progress

    Either way i wish you all the best in your progression
    Different Style,, now thats something i would like to try out.... how so different... ?? do you twirl differently, is it your drops???

  5. #25
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    Re: fixed partners

    Quote Originally Posted by trouble View Post
    Different Style,, now thats something i would like to try out.... how so different... ?? do you twirl differently, is it your drops???
    I must admit that i am not sure what it is that apparently makes us dance different but i read a thread on here when i first signed up about scottish style!..several people from above and below the border stated that we do things different...now i am in no way saying scottish style is better but it may still pass on some small tips depending on the route you want to go!

    I suppose i should also make a point of travelling down south as i have not managed to leave the scottish circuit yet!...so perhaps i would also find it beneficial to travel farther afield?

    In inverness (my local venue) we have alot of dancers who started learning MJ in england and the ladies do find them very different to dance with

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    Re: fixed partners

    Quote Originally Posted by Dazzler View Post
    I
    I suppose i should also make a point of travelling down south as i have not managed to leave the scottish circuit yet!...so perhaps i would also find it beneficial to travel farther afield?


    yeah you should....absolutely...sooner the better...

  7. #27
    Ceroc Teacher Dazzler's Avatar
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    Re: fixed partners

    right how bout if i make an effort to travel to a venue in your neck of the woods.....then you must also travel to a venue up here?

    Seems like a fair exchange which would be beneficial to both parties!

    But then again....what if i get there and realise i am actually a **** dancer?..

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    Re: fixed partners

    yes i think that would be good. you must of course wear your scottish get up tho....that way, even if your a **?" dancer (which im sure you are not) nobody will give a "">$ as they will be aving a look. is he isn't he...!!!!!!


  9. #29
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: fixed partners

    Re: shines:
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble View Post
    tell me What is it you dont like about them,,
    How long have you got?

    OK, in a nutshell, shines are a form of hijacking - very few women in salsa bother to actually consider their partner during shines, despite having wrenched control from them. Most of the time, it's up to the leader to try to figure out when (8 beat? 16? 24? 3.5? ) the lady's actually stopped, because she'll almost never bother trying to transfer control back to you.

    Hell, most salsa women won't even understand that they're effectively leading when they do shines.

    Quote Originally Posted by trouble View Post
    i sometimes incorporate moves i have learnt in Salsa into my Ceroc dancing and i think it can look quite cute.....!!!
    Yes, I hear there's a salsa class at Finchley that does that on Mondays. But don't tell anyone, it's a Secret.

    I've not seen anyone do salsa shines in Ceroc, however - is that what you mean?

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    Re: fixed partners

    yes,, you can do the basic shines especially when you have a little slow number on..... (thats the music not the dress)

    its nice to take the lead from the man sometimes, it wakes them up....

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    Re: fixed partners

    Quote Originally Posted by Feelingpink View Post
    Most guys do end up dancing a particular repertoire of moves. As one or two of them have commented on here, the followers get to dance with a range of guys in a wide variety of moves, but they have the same moves all night. If this is what is frustrating you, then perhaps not a fixed partner????
    I, like many other leaders have a repetoire of "prefered moves" and the reason that I prefer them is that I can generally get them to work with most people. There are many other moves taht I can do and would like to do but choose not to do for some or all of the following reasons.

    1) If your partner has floppy arms then you cannot provide subtle leads and have a realistic hope that you will remain in control of your partner. So chuck those moves out of the list of possible things to do.

    2) spinning. If you find your partner is a bit unsteady when spinning then it would be perverse and cruel to lead something that requires lots of spins to make it work. Chuck those moves off the list of possible things to do.

    3) Positional accuracy. Lead your partner in one direction (like your left hand side) and she autopilots into your right hand side. She is not going to go where you lead her, she is going where she expects to go. Don't bother fight ing this one. Lead here where you want her to go, see where she actaully does go, then try and make something out of that. After a few trys, give up and only lead stuff that she will conform to her expectations. There is no point it developing into an unpleasant battle of wills. Being unsteady in spins can also mean that when you spin your partner you cannot gaurantee that she will end up where you left her, so the entry into whatever you were planning next may not be smooth or even possible. That will chop a lot of possible things off your list.

    4) Space. If the space is not there than you cannot lead travelling moves without hitting other dancers. So don't lead them. If your partners movements at not controlled and tidy there is a serious risk that some thing that you could lead may hit other dancers so you have to limit what you lead to things that don't allow your partner to develop their wild side.

    5) Tempo. If the pace is fast then there isn't time to get a complicated move off the ground with someone that you are not sure of. As the pace goes up then the complexity of the move needs to come down. If it doeesn't then then something somewhere will go wrong, the move will fall apart and you partner will feel like they have just been flung out of a spin drier. If it means that much to you to do this fantastic, complicated move at speed then you have to practice it slowly and get all the rough edges smoothed off first.

    6) The hoppity skippity. For some reason your partner inserts triple steps at random into her movement. So you have no idea which foot she may have weight on at any particular time. So you cannnot lead a move like a manhatton where you rely on stepping forward on your left as she steps back on her right. In reality you are not leading at all. You have not lead a triple step so you don't have the faintest idea why your partner is doing them. Chuck out any move that may involve a ballroom hold because at some point you will tread on her feet or have to manhandle her to force her to step on the foot that you require.

    7) Charge!!! No matter what you do your partner finishes one move and charges at your right hand side. You try leading nothing but that doesn't stop her. You try gently pressing her hand down to ground both her feet to get her to stop but that doesn't work. You can chuck out moves used to hit breaks or hesitations.

    Having my own fixed partner means that I know what her skill sets is and she knows mine. So the range of things that we can do together is wider than the things that we can do with people that do not yet have all of those skills.

    Having a fixed partner allows both of you time to work together and tell each other what you expect of each other. Followers learn from leaders and leaders learn from followers. Having a really complicated move to work through merely forces you both to start communicating with each other in order to make this joint enterprise of dancing together work. Each of you learns the skills to make the other persons role easier or indeed, possible.

    Dancing with one partner can mean that you just develop bad habits that only the other person can cope with. So what you may be best off doing is communicating with other dancers and learning from them, and them from you, but not limiting yourself to just one person.

    Some time ago a group of dancing freinds used to hire a local hall on a Sunday evening once a month. We would play new tracks that we had heard to the other people so we all gotr a wide expereince of music. We would also introduce new moves or techniques to each other that we had learnt elsewhere. To do this also meant that we had to fully practice and understand what we were doing before we showed the rest of the group. Since the hall was ours the timetable was also ours. If someone had a problem the rest of the group could help iron it out.

    Dancers comminicating and learning together is the key, be it in a fixed partnership, a group of like minded dancers, or picking the brains of your teachers or other dancers. The great thing is that the resources are all around you.

  12. #32
    Ceroc Teacher Gordon J Pownall's Avatar
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    Re: fixed partners

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Ceroc teaching is all about the moves, which are male-led; so classes are always taught from a male point of view.

    OK, to be fair, most partner dances are taught like that - but most other dances will talk about what the follower should do.

    The problem with the demo being only a demo (and not a teacher) is that ladies have to infer how to put style into their moves. Even the female Ceroc teachers don't talk much about women's styling - most of their style points are still directed to the man.


    Some ladies in salsa could do with a bit less styling, and a bit more rhythm / following. Don't get me started on salsa bloody shines, it's not pretty.
    In fairness, Ceroc does teach moves and with the time limits, has little left over for style per se however I must add that (IMHO) there are Ceroc teachers who teach some points that can improve technique as opposed to just spouting out moves week after week.

    In response to teaching - most teachers (certainly I) teach to the couple, not the man. There is an emphasis on (usually) the man leading and therefore most instructions will be directed towards the leader however I teach always to the couple ensuring that both have an understanding of thier own role and that of each other....maybe I'm a rarity...???
    Gordy
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    Re: fixed partners

    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon J Pownall View Post
    maybe I'm a rarity...???
    There's no disagreement from me there!!

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    Re: fixed partners

    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon J Pownall View Post
    In response to teaching - most teachers (certainly I) teach to the couple, not the man. There is an emphasis on (usually) the man leading and therefore most instructions will be directed towards the leader however I teach always to the couple ensuring that both have an understanding of thier own role and that of each other....maybe I'm a rarity...???
    you are a rarity.. ceroc teachers i have been too and i have not done that many so dont take it as fact........talk to the man/leader.. unless a woman is teaching it in which case they sometimes give a few extra tips on how to make a move look better.

    i hate to keep comparing but Salsa normally has a man teaching the man moves and a woman will interveen inbetween the moves and show the woman what styling is needed and how best to work that move.....i have not seen this done in Salsa apart from Camba.

    why is this or does it happen wider afield and just not here in essex. !!!

  15. #35
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: fixed partners

    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon J Pownall View Post
    In fairness, Ceroc does teach moves and with the time limits, has little left over for style per se however I must add that (IMHO) there are Ceroc teachers who teach some points that can improve technique as opposed to just spouting out moves week after week.
    I agree - the Ceroc model doesn't allow time to teach style. If you have to teach 4 moves in 30-40 minutes, then another 4 moves in another 30-40 minutes, that gives little or no spare time to do anything else.

    But when you're teaching in the round (eg. as most other dance forms), the demo gets more opportunity to actually speak. The Ceroc Microphone-and-Stage model of teaching means that the demo can't contribute verbally.

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    Re: fixed partners

    thats a shame as im sure many women could benefit from that little bit of detail.

  17. #37
    Registered User NZ Monkey's Avatar
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    Re: fixed partners

    In response to teaching - most teachers (certainly I) teach to the couple, not the man. There is an emphasis on (usually) the man leading and therefore most instructions will be directed towards the leader however I teach always to the couple ensuring that both have an understanding of thier own role and that of each other....maybe I'm a rarity...???
    In my old classes back in Auckland there was a definite pattern in teaching the moves.

    1) The move is demonstrated
    2) It’s talked through by the teachers, still demonstrating
    3) It’s walked through with the class following the instructions (from the leads perspective).
    4) Repeat step 3 if necessary
    5) Walk through once again (from the followers perspective)
    6) Repeat step 5 if necessary
    7) Run through several times to a count
    8) Run through with music, either with the rest of the routine or only a few moves depending on the teachers preference and time constraints etc…

    Both the followers and the leaders got to see the move from their perspectives, but the leads get their instruction earlier because they have to actually lead the move and know exactly whats happening, and that takes more practice. Usually it's the ''demo'' teaching the follower role as well unless there is a clear difference in ability of the teachers.

    And us guys need to be told everything more than twice to make it stick anyway. Not to mention our genetic disposition to having two left feet.

  18. #38
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: fixed partners

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    In my old classes back in Auckland there was a definite pattern in teaching the moves.

    ...
    5) Walk through once again (from the followers perspective)
    6) Repeat step 5 if necessary
    ...

    Both the followers and the leaders got to see the move from their perspectives, but the leads get their instruction earlier because they have to actually lead the move and know exactly whats happening, and that takes more practice. Usually it's the ''demo'' teaching the follower role as well unless there is a clear difference in ability of the teachers.
    Interesting - I don't think I've ever seen steps 5-6 at a weekly Ceroc UK class.

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    Re: fixed partners

    Sydney Ceroc Australia perspective...

    A)Show the first move (twice on a different angle each time if necessary)
    B)Talk the class through the move briefly (twice). No footwork - emphasise weight distribution. lead and tension.
    C)Teach guy's footwork (Twice if necessary).
    D)Teach girl's footwork (Twice if necessary).
    E)Walk through the move giving instructions eg step back on 1, step together on 2 etc.
    F) Dance through by counting eg 1, 2, and 3, and 4.
    G) Count through and dance with music.
    H)Add any style tips for the move.


    NB: Get music on as soon as possible

  20. #40
    Not a spoon! Lou's Avatar
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    Re: fixed partners

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Interesting - I don't think I've ever seen steps 5-6 at a weekly Ceroc UK class.
    It happens during a typical Bristolian LeRoc class too. We have 2 teachers, even during beginners classes.

    There's pros & cons to it. You do get the style points and the ladies learn footwork & technique , however you also do have the disadvantage that ladies tend to step through the moves without waiting to be led.

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