Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 35 of 35

Thread: The Ten Commandments of Modern Jive

  1. #21
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    bedford
    Posts
    4,899
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: The Ten Commandments of Modern Jive

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    I disagree - this isn't a simplification-for-beginners, this is a bad habit to start with. If you start off by focussing on the "invitational" aspect of lead-and-follow, you hopefully get less yankers in the long run.
    Indication is another word I would use.

  2. #22
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Worcester, UK
    Posts
    4,157
    Rep Power
    12

    Re: The Ten Commandments of Modern Jive

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    I disagree - this isn't a simplification-for-beginners, this is a bad habit to start with.
    Suppose I want to lead a travelling return. If I were to "invite" my partner to do it, then I would first clear the space forward for her to travel into. This empty space would invite her in. I would also apply a small constant forwards force. This force will not tell my partner how fast to move past me, or when to move past me, only that I wished her to pass me at some time. Further, if my follower were to miss/ignore/refuse the pulling force, then there would be no "haptic error signal" (love that phrase). In other words, neither of us would feel that anything odd had happened.

    If I were to "tell" my partner to perform a travelling return, then I would not need to clear a space for except at the last moment. The pulling force would be more dynamic, comprising a light pre-lead similar to the invitational lead previously, with a firmer actual lead that tells my partner when to move, and also says something about how fast I intend her to move. If my follower were to miss/ignore/refuse the pulling force, she would still not be forced through the move against her will. However, it would be immediately obvious to both of us that something unusual had happened.

    As I noted in another thread, CTA-style MJ does not involve clearing space for the follower to move in advance, so it's clearly not invitational in that sense. MJ followers do not refuse leads on a regular basis (but of course there are obvious exceptions), and when they do it typically feels odd rather than part of the normal ebb and flow of the dance, so it's not invitational in that sense. When someone leads a travelling return in MJ, they mostly have a pretty clear idea of when they want it to start, and when they want it to end, so again that's not very invitational.

    I wouldn't call an invitational lead wrong, or a "bad habit", and I happilly use invitational leads in MJ on occasion. However, it seems to me that it's a leading style that's been imported from other dance forms. Given that beginner MJ men spend much of their time dancing with beginner MJ women who have no experience with those other dance forms, I don't think it helps them much to tell them to "invite" their partner to do stuff. On the other hand, what I might write in a "10 commandments" leaflet is:

    Thou shalt make mistakes
    If you're not making any mistakes, you're probably not trying hard enough.
    Men: if your partner messes up, for whatever reason, don't force her round like you're wrestling. It's ok for a move to go wrong.
    Women: if your partner doesn't lead you to do something, don't do it. It's ok for a move to go wrong.

  3. #23
    Registered User Dynamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Near a Lush green west of London
    Posts
    376
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: The Ten Commandments of Modern Jive

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Suppose I want to lead a travelling return. If I were to "invite" my partner to do it, then I would first clear the space forward for her to travel into. This empty space would invite her in. I would also apply a small constant forwards force. This force will not tell my partner how fast to move past me, or when to move past me, only that I wished her to pass me at some time. Further, if my follower were to miss/ignore/refuse the pulling force, then there would be no "haptic error signal" (love that phrase). In other words, neither of us would feel that anything odd had happened.

    If I were to "tell" my partner to perform a travelling return, then I would not need to clear a space for except at the last moment. The pulling force would be more dynamic, comprising a light pre-lead similar to the invitational lead previously, with a firmer actual lead that tells my partner when to move, and also says something about how fast I intend her to move. If my follower were to miss/ignore/refuse the pulling force, she would still not be forced through the move against her will. However, it would be immediately obvious to both of us that something unusual had happened.
    ...

    I wouldn't call an invitational lead wrong, or a "bad habit", and I happilly use invitational leads in MJ on occasion. However, it seems to me that it's a leading style that's been imported from other dance forms. Given that beginner MJ men spend much of their time dancing with beginner MJ women who have no experience with those other dance forms, I don't think it helps them much to tell them to "invite" their partner to do stuff. On the other hand, what I might write in a "10 commandments" leaflet is:

    Thou shalt make mistakes
    If you're not making any mistakes, you're probably not trying hard enough.
    Men: if your partner messes up, for whatever reason, don't force her round like you're wrestling. It's ok for a move to go wrong.
    Women: if your partner doesn't lead you to do something, don't do it. It's ok for a move to go wrong.


    You hit the nail on the head Martin , allow a more positive lead that gives some indication of speed and duration, then mix this experienced dancers including taxiis who by subtlty of lead will moderate the level of force required. Failing that, politely inform them of a more suitable level of force, stronger or weaker.

  4. #24
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Norf Lundin
    Posts
    17,001
    Blog Entries
    1
    Rep Power
    18

    Re: The Ten Commandments of Modern Jive

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Given that beginner MJ men spend much of their time dancing with beginner MJ women who have no experience with those other dance forms, I don't think it helps them much to tell them to "invite" their partner to do stuff.
    I'm just concerned that "tell" is too strong - a beginner leader can mistake it for "pull", or "yank".

    Whereas "invite" is more gentle and fluffy, and hopefully less likely to cause injuries. Given the choice, I'd prefer leads to be too light than too heavy.

  5. #25
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    bedford
    Posts
    4,899
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: The Ten Commandments of Modern Jive

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Suppose I want to lead a travelling return. If I were to "invite" my partner to do it, then I would first clear the space forward for her to travel into. This empty space would invite her in. I would also apply a small constant forwards force. This force will not tell my partner how fast to move past me, or when to move past me, only that I wished her to pass me at some time. Further, if my follower were to miss/ignore/refuse the pulling force, then there would be no "haptic error signal" (love that phrase). In other words, neither of us would feel that anything odd had happened....
    I think we have a different view on what some words mean. If I invite a partner / indicate to a partner to do something she will know that I have. If she refuses that invitation / ignores that indication I will know that she has. Communication is a vital element of modern jive. When I used to lead my dog he would know I was leading, and would, rightly, see me as a yanker. Invites and indications would have been useless with that dog. That was simply because he had not been trained right, but I was too young to know about that when I had a dog.
    The lead has to be the equivalent of "Lets", whilst being prepared for "No." Sometimes it has to be said louder to be heard, sometimes the invitation is a whisper or less, which happens when you are both in "the zone".

    Thou shalt make mistakes
    If you're not making any mistakes, you're probably not trying hard enough.
    Men: if your partner messes up, for whatever reason, don't force her round like you're wrestling. It's ok for a move to go wrong.
    Women: if your partner doesn't lead you to do something, don't do it. It's ok for a move to go wrong.
    My Father used to say "The man that never made a mistake, never made anything."

  6. #26
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Northeastern Parts
    Posts
    5,221
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: The Ten Commandments of Modern Jive

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    I think in MJ "telling" is more standard than "inviting"
    Which is a shame

  7. #27
    Not a spoon! Lou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Holby
    Posts
    3,772
    Blog Entries
    2
    Rep Power
    12

    Re: The Ten Commandments of Modern Jive

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    I'm just concerned that "tell" is too strong - a beginner leader can mistake it for "pull", or "yank".
    I agree with DavidJames.

    "Tell" is definitely too strong a word. It's like "pull" or "push". Better words might be, "lead", or "guide" or, indeed, "invite".

    As a follower, I've noticed a crop of Intermediates with uncomfortably forceful leads from one particular venue. I put it down to the language used by that teacher. On the plus side, she stresses that a tight handhold is bad by saying "no thumbs", but I have noticed that she uses phrases like "pull the lady into your side", much more than other teachers I've experienced. Hence, my suspicion that it's caused this larger proportion of heavy Leads.

    Of course, this study isn't at all scientific, and there could just as easily be some other factor at work & this is just coincidence...

  8. #28
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Norf Lundin
    Posts
    17,001
    Blog Entries
    1
    Rep Power
    18

    Re: The Ten Commandments of Modern Jive

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou View Post
    I agree with DavidJames.


    One exercise that used to be popular a while back is the "fingertip" lead - i.e. the only contact is via fingertip. That's a great exercise, and of course it's very useful for breaking bad yanker habits.

    Another great exercise is the "no-hands" lead, of course. And then there's the "eyes closed" lead.

    I'm looking forward to someone trying the "no-hands" and "eyes closed" together...

  9. #29
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Cruden Bay (Aberde
    Posts
    7,053
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: The Ten Commandments of Modern Jive

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou & DavidJames
    "Tell" is definitely too strong a word. It's like "pull" or "push". Better words might be, "lead", or "guide" or, indeed, "invite".
    But if you read it in context, does that not eliminate the harshness or at least soften the word? You couldn't really substitute "tell" for "yank" and have it make sense:

    - The follower is a person, not an inanimate object; you only need to tell them to move, not physically move them.

  10. #30
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Norf Lundin
    Posts
    17,001
    Blog Entries
    1
    Rep Power
    18

    Re: The Ten Commandments of Modern Jive

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    But if you read it in context, does that not eliminate the harshness or at least soften the word? You couldn't really substitute "tell" for "yank" and have it make sense:

    - The follower is a person, not an inanimate object; you only need to tell them to move, not physically move them.
    I dunno - a lot of it comes down to semantics still. Having said that, "invite" might well be too wishy-washy for a beginner audience, so maybe we need a different word...

    In that context, I'd say "show them where to move" instead of "tell them to move".

  11. #31
    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    London
    Posts
    4,881
    Rep Power
    12

    Re: The Ten Commandments of Modern Jive

    I do agree with: Thou shalt make mistakes.

    I don't agree with: "treat her as if she’s got a "fragile" warning label stuck to her." She is neither more nor less fragile than you are. A lead needs to be smooth but distinct and not wishy-washy, which is what fragile can lead to.

  12. #32
    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Pontllanfraith
    Posts
    2,261
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: The Ten Commandments of Modern Jive

    As my original run of 30 or so leaflets has now gone, I've just printed off another batch. I've re-worded the leaflet to take into account some of your suggestions, so here's the revised version. Thanks for all your ideas.

    The Ten Commandments of Modern Jive
    (A Guide for Beginners)

    1. Thou shalt relax and have fun!

    Modern Jive (the dance style we teach, also known as Le Roc) is, first and foremost, a fun activity. Relax, smile and enjoy the experience. It may seem a bit daunting in your first few weeks, but you’ll soon get the hang of it. In time, those moves that look so impressive and complicated now will become second nature to you.

    2. Thou shalt use a relaxed hand-hold.
    It’s important to keep a loose hand-hold. Don’t grip on to your partner’s hand as this can hurt your partner, particularly in turns. As a general rule, keep your thumb off your partner’s hand. If your partner’s hand-hold becomes a tight grip and is causing you discomfort or pain, ask them to loosen their grip. This becomes even more important if your partner has long nails that are digging into your palm.

    3. Thou shalt either lead or follow.
    Modern Jive is a male-led dance. Ladies, it’s the one area of life where men still get to have their own way, so humour them! Men, it’s your job to provide a clear lead. That doesn’t mean yanking your partner around like a hod of bricks, though. Keep it smooth; remember that her arms are attached at the other end, and should ideally stay that way. Lead her; don’t pull her. Ladies, it’s your job to follow what the man leads. Don’t put yourself into spins and turns; wait for the man to lead you into them, and you’ll find it’s a lot easier.
    This is all made much easier if you keep a springy tension in your arms. If you’re not sure how, ask a teacher. They’ll be happy to explain it to you.
    Lastly, some dancers develop a bad habit of bouncing their hands up and down in time with the music. Try to avoid this if you can, as not only does it look a bit naff, but it can make proper leading and following much more difficult with all that extra bouncing going on.

    4. Thou shalt dance in time.
    Dancing is basically moving to music. With that in mind, it’s surprising how many people just throw their partners (or themselves) into moves without paying any attention to the beat. Your teachers teach moves to a count to help you dance them in time.
    Try to listen to the music while you’re dancing. If you lose the beat, there’s nothing wrong with pausing for a moment to pick it up again.

    5. Thou shalt practise.
    Doing dance classes is a great way to learn how to do moves, but in order to remember them and to learn how to put them together in a dance, you need to practise. At the end of the beginners’ class, and again after the intermediate and beginners’ revision classes, there is "freestyle" time to practise what you’ve learned. It can be nerve-wracking at first, but try to relax. Men, try doing the moves you know, perhaps changing the order in which you do them. Have a simple "filler" move in mind to fall back on if your mind goes blank; the Octopus/Loophole or the First Move are good ones. Ladies, practise following what the man leads and be patient if he’s trying to master the new moves he’s just been taught.
    Don’t be afraid to make mistakes. That’s how we learn, and if a move goes wrong it’s not the end of the world. Just laugh it off. Even the best dancers mess up occasionally.

    6. Thou shalt be safe.
    Always dance well within your own capabilities. Sometimes you’ll see experienced dancers doing drops and other flashy moves on the dance floor, and you may think, "I’d love to have a go at that." However, those moves can be extremely dangerous if done by someone who hasn’t learned to do them properly. Until you have been taught the proper techniques, NEVER do drops or other dangerous moves. Men, even when you have learned to do them safely, always check with your partner beforehand that she is happy to do drops. Ladies, never throw yourself into a drop, as more than one lady has hit the floor or injured her partner because she threw herself backwards when her partner wasn’t actually leading a drop.
    With any move, if you feel yourself pulling on your partner’s arm in an awkward way stop and let go. Never try to force it or you may end up hurting your partner.
    Dancing within your own capabilities also means that you should wait a while before attempting the intermediate class. The moves are generally much harder and more complicated than those in the beginners’ class, so you need a thorough grasp of the basics before attempting this class. For most people this takes at least 2-3 months. The best way to tell if you’re ready to move up to intermediates is to ask one of the teaching team.

    7. Thou shalt not refuse a dance without a good reason.
    One of the great things about Modern Jive is that you are allowed to ask anyone to dance. It’s accepted etiquette that you accept any offer of a dance unless you have a good reason not to. Ladies can ask men to dance too. Don’t be shy – the only way to improve is to dance as much as possible. Don’t be afraid to ask experienced dancers, either. Everyone was a beginner once, and we all remember what it was like. Most people are happy to dance with beginners. Having said all that, if someone does turn you down for a dance, don’t take it personally. They may be too tired, needing a drink or any of a number of good reasons. Just move on and ask someone else instead.

    8. Thou shalt take care on the dance floor.
    When you first walk onto the dance floor, try to find an empty space rather than dancing too close to another couple. Particularly if it’s crowded, you should always be aware of what’s going on around you. It is your responsibility to avoid bumping into other dancers and to protect your partner. Never walk backwards onto the floor without looking where you are going. Men, always look where you are leading your partner (e.g. look over your shoulder before leading her behind you in a Catapult). If there’s not much room to move, keep your moves small. Ladies, be aware of where you’re moving and keep an eye out for your partner’s safety as well.
    Also, remember that the dance floor is only for dancing. If you want to chat, move to the edge of the room. Always walk around, rather than across, the dance floor if you’re not dancing.

    9. Thou shalt dress appropriately.

    You don’t need to buy specialist dance shoes (though these will be worth considering further down the line if you start to take your dancing seriously), but wear smooth-soled, comfortable shoes that you can spin in. Rubber-soled shoes are generally a bad idea. Comfortable clothing helps as well. Don’t wear rings with stones set into them, because these can hurt your partner’s hand when you’re dancing. Avoid loose jewellery etc. as well, as it can easily get tangled or broken.
    Dancing is a very physical activity, so it’s a good idea to bring along a spare shirt or top (or several) so that you can change when you get a bit sweaty. A hand towel to wipe your face is a good idea too, as is a can of antiperspirant deodorant. Nobody likes to dance with someone who is wringing wet.


    10. Thou shalt not smell!

    Personal hygiene is extremely important when you’re dancing up close with someone. Always have a shower or bath before going to a dance class or freestyle, and use antiperspirant or deodorant. There is no excuse for not bothering. Some people think they don’t need deodorant – trust me, you do when you’re dancing. That’s just as true for men and women. It can be helpful to freshen up with a bit of deodorant at various times during the evening as well, e.g. when you change your shirt.
    Try to avoid smoking before dancing. If you do smoke, eat a breath mint before dancing. Also, please remember not to eat strong foods such as garlic, curry or smoked fish before dancing. Your partners will notice if you do. A little consideration goes a long way.
    Version 2.0
    B.J.T. 2006

  13. #33
    Donna
    Guest

    Re: The Ten Commandments of Modern Jive

    7. Thou shalt not refuse a dance without a good reason.

    One of the great things about Modern Jive is that you are allowed to ask anyone to dance. It’s accepted etiquette that you don’t refuse to dance with someone unless you have a very good reason. Ladies can ask men to dance too. Don’t be shy – the only way to improve is to dance as much as possible. Don’t be afraid to ask experienced dancers, either. Everyone was a beginner once, and we all remember what it was like. Most people are happy to dance with beginners. Having said all that, if someone does turn you down for a dance, don’t take it personally. They may be too tired, needing a drink or any of a number of good reasons. Just move on and ask someone else instead.
    Hmmm this one bothers me... There's this guy in one of my local classes that I used to dance with all the time... great dancer - but, since he's been going out with someone, he doesn't want to. what a strange man! I asked him twice last week and when asked by someone immediately after refusing me he goes off and dances with this other woman!

  14. #34
    Registered User Trousers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    1,349
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: The Ten Commandments of Modern Jive

    Quote Originally Posted by Donna View Post
    Hmmm this one bothers me... There's this guy in one of my local classes that I used to dance with all the time... great dancer - but, since he's been going out with someone, he doesn't want to. what a strange man! I asked him twice last week and when asked by someone immediately after refusing me he goes off and dances with this other woman!
    Erm Donna, there was a time when it seemed that you didn't dance with anyone but Steve.

  15. #35
    Donna
    Guest

    Re: The Ten Commandments of Modern Jive

    Quote Originally Posted by Trousers View Post
    Erm Donna, there was a time when it seemed that you didn't dance with anyone but Steve.
    Erm yeah, that was running up to competitions only. We did dance with other people

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Modern Jive
    By Swinging bee in forum Let's talk about dance
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 13th-October-2005, 01:07 PM
  2. Modern jive name
    By Swinging bee in forum Chit Chat
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 11th-March-2005, 10:39 PM
  3. Challenging Your Modern Jive
    By Starlight Dancer in forum Let's talk about dance
    Replies: 40
    Last Post: 28th-October-2004, 02:11 PM
  4. WCS and Modern Jive
    By Gus in forum Let's talk about dance
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 21st-September-2004, 10:46 PM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •