This week's routine?

[David Bailey]

Re: semi-circles:

Is that just because it's ingrained in you. And in them? If you'd both been taught something different, would that be just as useful?

Probably, to all those questions.

When I teach now, I don't teach the semi-circle. Just some gentle pressure into the ladies hand. This probably makes me a bad person!

You're maybe confusing cause and effect there a little.

So I would say that, although MH is concerned that it breaks frame, it has an effect on developing a connection, particularly in beginners who don't know anything about connection yet. In fact, I would make the assertion that any leaders I know who haven't achieved 'connection' are those who simply try to push the lady's hand into her waist without giving her enough of a 'signal' to allow her to be ready for the compression that prevents that from happening.

I don't think the semi-circle is a bad thing in moderation, and it helps beginners. So shoot me.

MH says one thing, Tessalicious says another. It's all very confusing.

Good thing I never use it

[Whitebeard]

If you have a partner's hand guiding them onto the dance floor, then it's not necessary - you simply lead straight into a move. But if you find a place, stop and face our partner - then you need to give them warning.
{IMHO of course.}

Where there is room, it is safe, the music is to my taste, and I know I will slot straight into the rythym, I like to try to emulate the professionals and sweep my lady onto the floor with a whoosh and a turny spinny thingy. Get that right and I reckon I've already earned a browny point or two.

Otherwise I may be dragged onto the floor to some iffy (to me) track and have to fall back on the trusty arm-jive to try to tune in to the rythym (hate that word beat).

In either case the semi-circle is redundant but I can see the merits of of what Tess says.

On MHs point, can it be said there is a frame when the only connection is one hand to one hand ?

[bigdjiver]

The semi-circle is preperation (signl) for the pressure of the lead back. From 'cold'; if you simply lead with a gentle push back, you have to apply gradual pressure and time it right so they step back at the same time as you - the follower can't react and move that quickly without some advanced warning...

From cold, as in a class, the hands are usually in the wrong position to lead with a push back.

[Frankie_4711]

Where there is room, it is safe, the music is to my taste, and I know I will slot straight into the rythym, I like to try to emulate the professionals and sweep my lady onto the floor with a whoosh and a turny spinny thingy. Get that right and I reckon I've already earned a browny point or two.

You would do with me! Great way of starting a dance, although not one I use myself. Being a fairly 'Beginnery' lead I do tend to use the 'side step to get the beat then semi-circle' start, but also know of a few much more advanced dancers who use the semi-circle ... one in particular who literally stands stock still in the middle of the dancefloor until he's ready to do his (rather large and emphatic) semi-circle. But because he uses a lot of compression, and not just the semi-circle itself, it works - much more like bouncing off an In and Out. I 'think' mine is probably similar (hope so anyway!). I rather like starting with just a plain turn or two as well (both as lead and follow).

[Gentabout]

Over the last few weeks i have noticed that i am now taking the lady on to the dance floor and starting them off with a nice sway or spin rather than the semi circle to the left or right, i also try and make the movement on to the floor a little more interesting. This i find only works with ladies that i dance with a bit and i dont find my self actually thinking about it.

Probally a realy bad practice that i will have to beat out of myself.

Gent

[Frankie_4711]

... Probally a realy bad practice that i will have to beat out of myself.

Gent

Don't you dare!

[MartinHarper]

So what would be a better move / step to start off with then? Maybe a Manhatten? Nice and shadow-y, keeps frame, looks good...?

Arm Jive is open position, but it's the default in social MJ. It's a nice start, keeps frame (when done well), and it's easy to follow. I think it would work well so have the first move in every beginner's routine be an arm jive variation of some kind (normal, swizzle, or push spin), and starting out by holding both hands rather than just one. That would make the semi-circle no longer required as a signal/pre-lead.

For starting in closed, the "mambo" things work well enough, or else side-to-side sways. However, my preference for starting closed is a Lindy influence, and I can't think of any good reason for inflicting it on the whole MJ world, particularly given that all MJ moves are taught as starting and finishing in open position.

[David Bailey]

I just kind of drag them on to the floor by their hair and swing them around a bit.

Hey, it works for me

[Genie]

Genie: The reason why some leads may seem to pull you about could be to do with the timeing involved in exactly when (within the count) you settle your weight. I dance with some people who are on thir toes and I have to lead "infront" of the beat, and others who are more 'grounded' where I have to lead fractionally "behind" the beat. :shrug: I'll try and work it out next time we dance

Thanks hun. I think I am probably one of the 'former' dancers. But you can tell me on tuesday

Oh and Whitebeard, Genie doesn't mean that about the CC at all! I think she means that some leaders don't allow for weight change and just pull you into the next move regardless. I think!!!!!!

That's what I meant, yes. If they lead a step back, even with a gentle push with their hands, if I try and put my weight back I get pulled off my feet. Does that make sense? It's happened a couple of times.

I think trampy might have been telling me at one point in a dance 'not' to lean back, but I didn't hear him, so I wasn't sure if he was/wasn't telling me to lean back. I didn't have time to ask... But I'll have to sort out this weight thing if men are finding it a problem to lead

[El Salsero Gringo]

cue appropriate joke from the CTA Bumper Book Of Jokes (I know there is one of these, don't tell me there isn't)

Wouldn't dream of it!

My personal opinion is that from a standing-still start, it's actually quite tricky to push away from each other smoothly and together without a little bit of motion as Gadget and Tessalicious have said. The semi-circle (or whatever motion you want to make with your hand) is a signal for the follower to be ready for the push-away and to have some arm tension engaged with which to react to that push. It's not something over which to engage in Swiftian big-end/little-end wars.

[David Bailey]

My personal opinion is that from a standing-still start, it's actually quite tricky to push away from each other smoothly and together without a little bit of motion as Gadget and Tessalicious have said. The semi-circle (or whatever motion you want to make with your hand) is a signal for the follower to be ready for the push-away and to have some arm tension engaged with which to react to that push.

I do think it's a useful learning convention, I think the benefits outweigh the drawbacks. Whether it's a useful dance convention, I dunno.

It's not something over which to engage in Swiftian big-end/little-end wars.

Yes - much better to save that for the important stuff, like "which foot to step back on"

[Lou]

I do think it's a useful learning convention, I think the benefits outweigh the drawbacks. Whether it's a useful dance convention, I dunno.

Yes - much better to save that for the important stuff, like "which foot to step back on"

Actually, doing the semi-circle makes it trickier to indicate to the follower which foot you'd like her to step back on. But if you're doing Ceroc™, I don't suppose it matters.

[David Bailey]

Actually, doing the semi-circle makes it trickier to indicate to the follower which foot you'd like her to step back on. But if you're doing Ceroc™, I don't suppose it matters.

I'm fairly sure that I've not done Ceroc™ - in fact, I'm fairly sure there's no dance called Ceroc™. So

Perhaps you meant "If you're dancing as taught by Ceroc™"? :patronising look:

[El Salsero Gringo]

Actually, doing the semi-circle makes it trickier to indicate to the follower which foot you'd like her to step back on. But if you're doing Ceroc™, I don't suppose it matters.

Just curious then... do you teach men to decide which foot they want the woman to step back on..?

[Lou]

Just curious then... do you teach men to decide which foot they want the woman to step back on..?

Actually, we teach the woman what foot to step back on. But it's irrelevant anyway, as LeRoc teaches the semi-circle too. I just wanted to take up DavidJames' suggestion of talking about footwork...

[David Bailey]

Actually, we teach the woman what foot to step back on.

Which, of course, is the foot the man leads her to step back on

Anyway, what's today's routine then? Anyone want to give the game away in advance? (PM me if you want, I'll put it up for you, I've got no fear )

[Gav]

Where there is room, it is safe, the music is to my taste, and I know I will slot straight into the rythym, I like to try to emulate the professionals and sweep my lady onto the floor with a whoosh and a turny spinny thingy. Get that right and I reckon I've already earned a browny point or two.

That sounds really cool
Must give that a try tonight, if I get it right I might have trouble getting my fat head through the doorway later tho'
You really can't beat this forum for cherry-picking the best of other peoples ideas!

[Frankie_4711]

Anyway, what's today's routine then? Anyone want to give the game away in advance? (PM me if you want, I'll put it up for you, I've got no fear )

I'm a brave little bunny ...

Should be:

First Move
Shoulder Slide
Yoyo
Cerocspin

And they will each begin with a small semi-circle and step back ... and should all end with a return, except the Yoyo

[David Bailey]

First Move
Shoulder Slide
Yoyo
Cerocspin

Sounds good.
But, and I know this may sound weird, I dunno if you need a return after the shoulder slide to get into a Yoyo...?

[TheTramp]

Possibly not. But we're doing one here in Dundee tonight