This week's routine?

[MartinHarper]

You hardly need to travel sideways more than half your shoulder width...

I think the problem is caused by this new-fangled slotted-style MJ, where the leader moves completely off the slot so the follower can walk directy forward. This means he needs to move one shoulder-width to one side at the start of the shoulder slide. Then he needs to be one shoulder-width to the other side at the start of the catapult. The net effect is that the leader is two shoulder-widths from where he wants to be.

The solution is to replace the leader's step-back between the shoulderslide and the catapult with a side step to the leader's left. Alternatively you could try to lead the follower to side step to her left in place of her normal step-back, but good luck with that.

[El Salsero Gringo]

I think the problem is caused by this new-fangled slotted-style MJ, where the leader moves completely off the slot so the follower can walk directy forward. This means he needs to move one shoulder-width to one side at the start of the shoulder slide. Then he needs to be one shoulder-width to the other side at the start of the catapult. The net effect is that the leader is two shoulder-widths from where he wants to be.

No he's not. He steps forward and then back for the shoulder slide. Then he steps in for the start of the catapult. The rest is just about leading properly.

The solution is to replace the leader's step-back between the shoulderslide and the catapult with a side step to the leader's left.

No, don't do that. And please don't suggest it. It's hard enough to get people to step back properly without telling them that there's a "better" way of doing it. It works just fine the way it is.

[David Bailey]

OK, I don't give up...

The point I was trying to make is that, for the follower, the start of a catapult is the step back.

But, the end of a shoulder-slide (or step across or manspin for that matter) is not a step back, as the follower has to turn 180 degrees to face the leader. And currently, the follower steps across on the first beat, then turns-and-steps-back on the second beat, correct?

So the follower is turning and stepping, not just stepping back. OK, it's only 180 degrees, but it's different to a simple step-back. And the leader also turns 180 degrees, so that's a combined 360-degree turn. Which is why the most natural "unwinding" for that 360-deg turn is a return.

So the end-point to a shoulder-slide is not the exactly the same as the start point to a catapult.

Why do I care? Well, if you start AT, you too will get very fussy about little details...

[El Salsero Gringo]

OK, I don't give up...

The point I was trying to make is that, for the follower, the start of a catapult is the step back.

But, the end of a shoulder-slide (or step across or manspin for that matter) is not a step back, as the follower has to turn 180 degrees to face the leader. And currently, the follower steps across on the first beat, then turns-and-steps-back on the second beat, correct?

So the follower is turning and stepping, not just stepping back. OK, it's only 180 degrees, but it's different to a simple step-back. And the leader also turns 180 degrees, so that's a combined 360-degree turn. Which is why the most natural "unwinding" for that 360-deg turn is a return.

So the end-point to a shoulder-slide is not the exactly the same as the start point to a catapult.

The end-point for a shoulder slide is square on to your partner, having stepped back. The start point for a catapult is (guess what?) square on to your partner, having just stepped back. Same.

The end of a move can be a straight step back, or (as you wisely point out) a complete-the-turn and step back.

One point of the routines (as opposed to just learning each move individually) is that you get to see that the straight step back you learn in the move alone can become the turn and step back at the end of the previous move. So no problem, surely?

Why do I care? Well, if you start AT, you too will get very fussy about little details...

No problem about details ... but no problem, either!

(How did I guess that a comparison with AT would be snuck in there somehow....?)

[David Bailey]

The end-point for a shoulder slide is square on to your partner, having stepped back.

and turned.

The start point for a catapult is (guess what?) square on to your partner, having just stepped back.

and not turned.

Same.

Err, no.

(How did I guess that a comparison with AT would be snuck in there somehow....?)

It wasn't easy to shoehorn it in, believe me.

You know what? I've decided I really don't like the catapult, it's a silly bloody move.

[MartinHarper]

No, don't do that. And please don't suggest it. It's hard enough to get people to step back properly without telling them that there's a "better" way of doing it. It works just fine the way it is.

If you choose to dance slotted-style MJ, and you choose to dance a shoulderslide with no return followed by a catapult, then you'll want to replace whatever standard step back you do between the two moves with some form of side step (or possibly a diagonal step back).

If you choose to dance CTA-style MJ, then it works just fine the way it is taught, as you say.

[El Salsero Gringo]

If you choose to dance slotted-style MJ, and you choose to dance a shoulderslide with no return followed by a catapult, then you'll want to replace whatever standard step back you do between the two moves with some form of side step (or possibly a diagonal step back).

If you choose to dance CTA-style MJ, then it works just fine the way it is taught, as you say.

Ok, but help me out a little - what's slotted style MJ as opposed to CTA style MJ (let's call that Ceroc, which seems fair enough..)?

[El Salsero Gringo]

and turned.

and not turned.

Err, no.

Are we at cross purposes? I'm talking about positions at the end of a move, you're talking about movements at the end of a move?

[David Bailey]

Are we at cross purposes? I'm talking about positions at the end of a move, you're talking about movements at the end of a move?

Possibly.

But to me, movement defines position - you can't just assume the position exists by itself, you had to move to get there. Which is why I'm wittering on about flow, momentum etc.

[MartinHarper]

Ok, but help me out a little - what's slotted style MJ as opposed to CTA style MJ (let's call that Ceroc, which seems fair enough..)?

The difference I'm thinking of is that in slotted-style, the follower moves directly forward at the start of the shoulder slide and the catapult, and the leader clears the path for her to move directly forward earlier, by the end of the step back. By contrast, in CTA-style, the follower moves slightly to the left (half a shoulder-width, as you say) as she moves forward at the start of these moves, and the leader only clears space for her to get past as she moves past (by turning 90 degrees, as you say).

[El Salsero Gringo]

Possibly.

But to me, movement defines position - you can't just assume the position exists by itself, you had to move to get there. Which is why I'm wittering on about flow, momentum etc.

Ok then, the flow into a catapult depends on with which move you preceed it. But if you (one) works on getting the "anchor" positions (stepped-back, facing your partner) as part of that flow, then what you end up dancing is Ceroc. If you don't (one doesn't) find that comfortable then you have two choices: practice until it gets comfortable (lots of ballroom figures don't feel comfortable until you work on them) or change what you're doing. Martin says he prefers (in some sense) a step to the side between the moves. Fair enough. But the more you change things, the less it is Ceroc. There's no problem with that. No one is going to grade you or mark you (one, again) down. Ceroc says, as far as I can tell, and speaking personally (not as a CTA member), "whatever feels comfortable is OK". It *doesn't* say "whatever feels comfortable is Ceroc."

So if you (anyone) wants to change the catapult, to a different hand hold, or turn sideways, or whatever, I don't think anyone cares too much, and I like that. But it's not a (Ceroc) catapult anymore!

[El Salsero Gringo]

The difference I'm thinking of is that in slotted-style, the follower moves directly forward at the start of the shoulder slide and the catapult, and the leader clears the path for her to move directly forward earlier, by the end of the step back. By contrast, in CTA-style, the follower moves slightly to the left (half a shoulder-width, as you say) as she moves forward at the start of these moves, and the leader only clears space for her to get past as she moves past (by turning 90 degrees, as you say).

Fair enough. I don't know of anyone who teaches that kind of slotted MJ though.

[Gadget]

Fair enough. I don't know of anyone who teaches that kind of slotted MJ though.

Marc is about the only person I can think on.
Although Franck, Lorna, Lisa and Emma {that I know of} all teach that both the lead and the follower should move out of each other's way - ie if you need to be side to side, the lead moves slightly to one side and the follower travels less distance to the other side.
(Alterantive1: lead stays put and follower does all the traveling. Alternative2: lead moves to one side and follower maintains their 'slot'. Most beginner's classes do alt1.)

[Tessalicious]

You want a fun one: try doing an octopus in normal time, removing the step backs.

Certain guys I don't enjoy dancing with much do that to me every time - are you trying to put everyone off dancing with you Mr G?

(Alterantive1: lead stays put and follower does all the traveling. Alternative2: lead moves to one side and follower maintains their 'slot'. Most beginner's classes do alt1.)

Wrong. Most beginners classes I've ever been to have demonstrated, and often explicitly taught, that both lead and follow have to get out of each other's way. Using the train-track slot analogy, they both start with one foot on each track of the slot, and move in to each other's sides each having one foot on a track and one foot out of the slot.

It's not the teacher's fault if that doesn't always work perfectly for the whole class - if a Ceroc teacher inserted into the class an emphatic explanation of all the things that this forum thinks are missed out, a beginners class would be 3 hours long.

Anyway, who brought the really pernickety Ceroc-related discussion into this lovely word-association forum?

[MartinHarper]

Fair enough. I don't know of anyone who teaches that kind of slotted MJ though.

Jango is taught to that style, if I recall correctly. My guess is it's caused in freestyle mostly by influences from other dances.

[David Bailey]

Anyway, who brought the really pernickety Ceroc-related discussion into this lovely word-association forum?

Yeah, sorry about that.

Boy, this "ignore vast sections of the forum" function is great, though

[Freya]

So what are tonights beginner's moves????

[Frankie_4711]

From what I can work out it probably should be:

First Move
Shoulder Slide
Catapult
(In & Out)
Basket

But I could oh-so-easily be very very wrong, so don't take my word for it!

[TheTramp]

Nope. Those are the ones for tonight.

A much better pick than last night!

Isn't this the routine that we came in on though? Oh, the decisions tonight. To return, or not to return!

[Freya]

Only different move is A first move instead of a swizzle and they've mucked up the order! Are they getting lazy?