This week's routine?

[DavidY]

You altered the Sacred Text?
BURN HIM!!!

Not me - I was only a taxi dancer on Monday night.

I don't think so - because you'll have less time to practise the difficult move. If you learn the tough one at the start, then you'll be able to practise it every time you do the whole routine, so you have a better chance of getting it - at least, that's what I found. Sometimes a move only clicks when you've done it a certain number of times.

I see what you mean, but I dunno - I've seen Beginners who haven't "got" it when the teacher has finished teaching & moved to the next move, and every time the teacher goes through the routine from the start, they still struggle, and feel at sea with the later easier moves because they've lost timing with the teacher.

If I'm taxiing I often do a mini-survey in the refresher class to see which move people found hardest, and then spend some time on that one before doing the rest.

[David Bailey]

That is correct. You can go to six beginner's classes in the same week and not get the same routine twice.

And then you'd be An Intermediate Dancer, after 1 week

That system sounds eminently sensible to me, thanks for explaining.

Re: transition from swizzle to basket:

But H always inserts an In and Out as an introduction to the Basket, which I feel does aid the transition.

Really? Howcum? Surely it's easier to simply not let go of your partner's hand?

as I led the following move by taking my right hand to the left shoulder I was, for a moment, in the curious position of having my arms crossed in front of my chest. Is that a style point or sheer incompetence ?

Depends how good it looks

[TheTramp]

And then you'd be An Intermediate Dancer, after 1 week

That system sounds eminently sensible to me, thanks for explaining.

Ummm. I think that they say it takes 12 weeks to be an intermediate dancer. So you'd actually need to go and do a class a day for 2 weeks before you achieve that!!

[Freya]

Hi the Beginner moves at Culter last night were:

• First Move
• Manspin catching right
• Shoulder drop
• Octopus

I think! I was messing about with Gadget at the Back of the hall as we got there late. Trying to lead Gadget is not the easiest thing in the world.

[David Bailey]

Ummm. I think that they say it takes 12 weeks to be an intermediate dancer. So you'd actually need to go and do a class a day for 2 weeks before you achieve that!!

Yeah, I thought it had changed to 12 weeks, but I still hear 6 weeks being bandied around, so I dunno.

Looking at the ceroc.com website, it says:

We normally recommend that it takes about 5 or 6 beginners classes to master the basic moves and feel comfortable to join in at Intermediate level.

[TheTramp]

Yeah, I thought it had changed to 12 weeks, but I still hear 6 weeks being bandied around, so I dunno.

Looking at the ceroc.com website, it says:

Hmmm.....

It's always mentioned as 12 weeks up here.

I'd still prefer to see it done as, "feel comfortable with all the beginner moves, and dancing freestyle".

Maybe even mention of having completed a beginners workshop too.

Definitely think that 5-6 weeks (classes), is far too few for almost all leads, and a good number of followers.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Trying to lead Gadget is not the easiest thing in the world.

The cannonical quote, I believe, is "You can lead Gadget to a keyboard, but you can't make him think."

[TheTramp]

The cannonical quote, I believe, is "You can lead Gadget to a keyboard, but you can't make him think."

"Think"? I thought that it was "spell-check"?

[David Bailey]

Definitely think that 5-6 weeks (classes), is far too few for almost all leads, and a good number of followers.

I agree. I reckon 3 months is a minimum, and I'd be happier with 3-6 months being a recommendation.

I mean, we did the straightjacket on Monday in the intermediate's class, and for someone who'd only done 6 weeks, that'd be a nightmare to attempt.

But CerocTM wants to push the "easy to dance" message...

[TheTramp]

I agree. I reckon 3 months is a minimum, and I'd be happier with 3-6 months being a recommendation.

I mean, we did the straightjacket on Monday in the intermediate's class, and for someone who'd only done 6 weeks, that'd be a nightmare to attempt.

But CerocTM wants to push the "easy to dance" message...

Brings back the idea of intromediate classes, doesn't it

And, I still say that it shouldn't be based on a time, but on ability, or opportunity. I did the intermediate class on my 2nd night - but I was good friends with a taxi-dancer at the time. There are some people who are just very talented. Others might well be still doing only beginner classes after several years!

Maybe people should have to speak to the teacher before moving up!

[David Bailey]

Maybe people should have to speak to the teacher before moving up!

Careful, you'll be suggesting we have an evil divisive card system next...

[TheTramp]

Careful, you'll be suggesting we have an evil divisive card system next...

Me? Nah! I was just setting you up to mention it!

[onkar]

Not sure how other's do it but in Ceroc Central land, we have a 12 week rota.

This lists various combinations of the beginners moves 4 normally (or 5 if the in & out is included). Each week will contain one move from the previous week.

All Ceroc Central venues on that day will teach the same set of moves. The idea being that if someone attends several classes a week, they will not get the same class twice. This structure may well be nationwide, but it is certainly true of Central.

Onkar

[El Salsero Gringo]

Not sure how other's do it but in Ceroc Central land, we have a 12 week rota.

This lists various combinations of the beginners moves 4 normally (or 5 if the in & out is included). Each week will contain one move from the previous week.

All Ceroc Central venues on that day will teach the same set of moves. The idea being that if someone attends several classes a week, they will not get the same class twice. This structure may well be nationwide, but it is certainly true of Central.

Onkar

It is a system that is available to Ceroc teachers nationally. I know of none who choose to ignore it; I also believe that Ceroc Central makes it an absolute requirement of its teachers to follow it.

[Gadget]

Dropping the return:
I think that dropping the return from the shoulder slide to the cattapult is good because it makes it harder: you have to actually complete the shoulder slide, finishing with the correct orientation to your partner before the cattapult will flow smoothly on from it. If you put a return in, it makes it easier because you can use that movement to re-align yourself with your partner in readyness for the cattapult.

The shoulder slide as a move:
I think again it's good for beginners because it introduces the concept that you hand can be in one of three heights: above your partner's head, shoulder height or waist level. The teacher can make sure that it's not too high, that follower's don't simply turn because a hand is being raised and leads can try to avoid ambiguous signals.
You can also 'play' with the move more than a man-spin (taking time to slide accross the back), it's easier to catch with the left again from this than the man-spin, and with some crafty leading, it can turn into a comb variation

same routines
I like the idea that no matter where you are in the country, everyone learns the same thing on the dame night. Makes for easier discussion and builds more of the 'community spirit' into it.

being led
I would be OK (for a beginner ) if I didn't sabotage all the time ... or anticipate... or offer/take the wrong hand... or... {BTW she's a good lead }

[TheTramp]

Dropping the return:
I think that dropping the return from the shoulder slide to the cattapult is good because it makes it harder: you have to actually complete the shoulder slide, finishing with the correct orientation to your partner before the cattapult will flow smoothly on from it. If you put a return in, it makes it easier because you can use that movement to re-align yourself with your partner in readyness for the cattapult.

I agree.

However, whether I'd teach it without would depend on whether there were any people in their first couple of weeks in the class. Or whether I was just feeling plain mean!

[David Bailey]

Dropping the return:
I think that dropping the return from the shoulder slide to the cattapult is good because it makes it harder: you have to actually complete the shoulder slide, finishing with the correct orientation to your partner before the cattapult will flow smoothly on from it. If you put a return in, it makes it easier because you can use that movement to re-align yourself with your partner in readyness for the cattapult.

Yeah, but there's "harder" and "not flowing" - a return makes it flow better for me, there's less work involved in trying to align yourself at the end, twist the hand around etc.

To me, the natural position from the end of a shoulder slide wasn't really appropriate for an immediate catapult - putting a return in made the routine seem more natural.

The shoulder slide as a move:
I think again it's good for beginners because it introduces the concept that you hand can be in one of three heights: above your partner's head, shoulder height or waist level. The teacher can make sure that it's not too high, that follower's don't simply turn because a hand is being raised and leads can try to avoid ambiguous signals.
You can also 'play' with the move more than a man-spin (taking time to slide accross the back), it's easier to catch with the left again from this than the man-spin, and with some crafty leading, it can turn into a comb variation

True, but that's not for a beginner's class. And surely the moves like shoulder drop can teach you about the arm positions?

same routines
I like the idea that no matter where you are in the country, everyone learns the same thing on the dame night. Makes for easier discussion and builds more of the 'community spirit' into it.

Me too - in fact, I'm surprised no-one's started a thread like this before.

[Gadget]

To me, the natural position from the end of a shoulder slide wasn't really appropriate for an immediate catapult - putting a return in made the routine seem more natural.

But every Ceroc beginner move starts and ends in exactly the same position with the same hand hold and the same orientation. This is what makes any move able to link to any other move with ease.
...What you're really saying is that you don't actually perform a shoulder slide as it should be done. *tsk* and from a demo too. {}

[David Bailey]

But every Ceroc beginner move starts and ends in exactly the same position with the same hand hold and the same orientation. This is what makes any move able to link to any other move with ease.
...What you're really saying is that you don't actually perform a shoulder slide as it should be done. *tsk* and from a demo too. {}

Well, only a part-time demo. I'm not a Real Dancer, after all. The teacher was desperate, I think I was about 15th on her list.

Seriously, how do you end up in the neutral handhold from a shoulder-slide? Surely the natural handhold is with the guy's hand palm-down from that move? Of course, you can cheat, but that's, well, cheating.

In fact - looking at the list of beginner moves:

1. First Move
2. Basket
3. Octopus
4. Comb
5. Arm jive
6. Yo-yo
7. Push spin
8. Swizzle
9. Backpass
10. Catapult
11. Cerocspin
12. In and out
13. Man-spin
14. Shoulder Drop
15. Shoulder Slide
16. Side to side

Very few of these moves don't require a return to get back to the starting point. Try doing a catapult then a manspin, without the return...

[Lou]

.... an In-and-Out between the Armjive Swizzle and the BasketWe also had the "without return in-between" variant...

But H always inserts an In and Out as an introduction to the Basket, which I feel does aid the transition.

You altered the Sacred Text?
BURN HIM!!!

To appreciate which moves feel better with/without a return before, try dancing them as a Follower.

A catapult is always awkward after a return. So kudos to the person teaching with DavidY, for dropping it. Presumably she's female, so has noticed the problem from a Follower's POV.

To be honest, I disagree with ESG ( ) that the beginner routines are well thought out. It's always going to be awkward for a beginner to lead a catapult directly after a Manspin, because new Leads are not particularly comfortable moving (hell - even DavidB doesn't like doing it ) which is probably why DavidJamesfeels happier leading a return - it gives him some breathing space. But it does feel weird to the follower. It would be better if a Catapult followed a Yo-yo, for instance. It's the anti-clockwise turn of a return going into the anti-clockwise turn under the arm bit of the catapult that feels odd.

The in-and-out, after a Return, but before a Basket, breaks up 2 consecutive anti-clockwise turns (the bit where you wrap the lady in is an anti-clockwise turn).

But every Ceroc beginner move starts and ends in exactly the same position with the same hand hold and the same orientation. This is what makes any move able to link to any other move with ease.

Are you playing Devil's Advocate, Gadget? Yes, they do. And all combinations are possible. But I'm just explaining why some feel nicer than others.

Very few of these moves don't require a return to get back to the starting point. Try doing a catapult then a manspin, without the return...

You see, it'll work that way because the lady has just completed a CLOCKWISE turn, prior to the anti-clockwise Return