This week's routine?

[Gadget]

Certain guys I don't enjoy dancing with much do that to me every time - are you trying to put everyone off dancing with you Mr G?

They must be very good leads (or very strong leads ) - I can only do it (would only do it) with one or two followers and it only works every so often when I get the timeing perfect.
Once a follower starts in the octopus, only some very good followers will actually let themselves be led into the step back (or not as the case may be)

Wrong. Most beginners classes I've ever been to have demonstrated, and often explicitly taught, that both lead and follow have to get out of each other's way.

That's what I said - it's taught that way... but most beginners don't actually do it that way.
It's like transferring your weight to the back foot on the step back of a first move - it's taught, but I only see one or two people actually doing it (in both beginner and intermediate classes)
:shrug: maybe people don't understand the concepts "Transfer your weight" or "get out the way" (Why get out the way when I can lead them round me? Why transfer weight when I can do it from here?...Lazy?)

[bigdjiver]

From what I can work out it probably should be:

First Move
Shoulder Slide
Catapult
(In & Out)
Basket

But I could oh-so-easily be very very wrong, so don't take my word for it!

The girl must be psychic!

So, what are the euro lottery numbers?

[Frankie_4711]

The girl must be psychic!

So, what are the euro lottery numbers?

Nothing personal, but if I knew, I wouldn't be sharing!

[Genie]

The 'step back' of a lot of moves are easy enough when the lead actually leads the semi-circle step back bit (technical terms aren't happening, sorry). A lot of leads I've tried to follow don't. They pull straight into moves without giving you time or chance to transfer your weight (unless you want to be yanked off your feet).

Although if you don't transfer your weight back, it does look quite silly. Like you're sticking your foot out behind you for no apparent reason :p

[MartinHarper]

If you don't transfer your weight back, it does look quite silly. Like you're sticking your foot out behind you for no apparent reason :p

You can turn it into a back-kick (or kick-ball-change thing), or you can point your foot and tap the floor with your toes. Probably looks equally silly, but at least purposeful and silly.

[Whitebeard]

The 'step back' of a lot of moves are easy enough when the lead actually leads the semi-circle step back bit (technical terms aren't happening, sorry). A lot of leads I've tried to follow don't. They pull straight into moves without giving you time or chance to transfer your weight (unless you want to be yanked off your feet).

At first reading you seemed to be saying that you expected the Ceroc Circle for every move within a dance. I do hope I'm mistaken. Even Ceroc would only ask for the C C to initiate the first move of a dance. If not, you wouldn't like dancing with me as I just about never use it at all in freestyle. The C C is only meant as a signal to start the dance and forms no part of lead and follow.

(It's just a little quirky thing they have, you know.)

[David Bailey]

At first reading you seemed to be saying that you expected the Ceroc Circle for every move within a dance. I do hope I'm mistaken. Even Ceroc would only ask for the C C to initiate the first move of a dance.

Can someone remind me again, what's so wrong about the semi-circle? I recall that it's the Fount Of All Evil, but I can't remember why now (it's early and I'm getting old)?

[Lou]

Can someone remind me again, what's so wrong about the semi-circle? I recall that it's the Fount Of All Evil, but I can't remember why now (it's early and I'm getting old)?

It's only the Fount of All Evil when it's done Anti-Clockwise. It's the widdershins bit, y'know.

Otherwise, it's merely silly.

[Freya]

Can someone remind me again, what's so wrong about the semi-circle? I recall that it's the Fount Of All Evil, but I can't remember why now (it's early and I'm getting old)?

Erm where do I start...?

My problem with the CC is that it teaches New dancers to signal the start of a dance rather than leading the push back! Many new people and unfortunatley some people have never dropped the habbit of doing a huge circle and I'm afraid it looks silly and I hate it!

Oh and Whitebeard Genie doesn't mean that about the CC at all! I think she means that some leaders don't allow for weight change and just pull you into the next move regardless. I think!!!!!!

[David Bailey]

My problem with the CC is that it teaches New dancers to signal the start of a dance rather than leading the push back!

Not sure I understand...?

Many new people and unfortunatley some people have never dropped the habbit of doing a huge circle and I'm afraid it looks silly and I hate it!

OK, that's fine, but I still don't see what's actually technically wrong with it?

I don't do circles - but then, I hardly do anything, really, "shuffle-back-and-forth" describes my dancing at the moment - but I've seen them done well. For example, Mike Ellard uses them to great effect to accentuate fast in-and-out movements when dancing to those weird Big Band numbers.

So is it just personal preference, or is there something inherently wrong with it?

[Freya]

Erm ok!

Was dancing with this guy in the class not really paying much attention waiting from the slight pressure to step back and all he did was draw a semicircle with his hand. He then asked me why I wasn't stepping back! I had got so used to feeling the pressure of the push that I completely ignored the semi circle.

I suppose there is nothing technically wrong with it! I've never seen it done nicely and most people I regularly dance with don't use it!

[Whitebeard]

.......... For example, Mike Ellard uses them to great effect to accentuate fast in-and-out movements when dancing to those weird Big Band numbers.

Clever fellow; making virtue out of a sin !!!

[whitetiger1518]

It's only the Fount of All Evil when it's done Anti-Clockwise. It's the widdershins bit, y'know.

Otherwise, it's merely silly.

Ah well, there it is... I can't dance with you Lou...

I adore the Anti Clockwise moves -

Might be because I'm a left hander and proud of it..


Occasionally, leaders that remember that I'm left handed start to practice all the anti clockwise moves on me... Makes a good change to be led by my dominant hand. (Have even been led through a whole track this way and I loved it! )

Whitetiger

[ducasi]

Can someone remind me again, what's so wrong about the semi-circle? I recall that it's the Fount Of All Evil, but I can't remember why now (it's early and I'm getting old)?

The semicircle is a signal, rather than a lead. Haven't we already decided that signals are evil?

While it might be useful for beginners who haven't yet got the idea of leading or following, but by the time you get to the intermediate class, "semicircle and step back" should be replaced by "lead the lady to step back". (IMHO )

[MartinHarper]

Can someone remind me again, what's so wrong about the semi-circle? I recall that it's the Fount Of All Evil, but I can't remember why now (it's early and I'm getting old)?

MJ semi-circle starts tend to be frame-breaking. This is of course fine if followed by some twisty thing where you want your partner to have floppy arms, but is less desirable if followed by a Columbian. They also tend to be signals, which some people dislike.
Finally, they encourage folks to start the dance in open, which is Bad.

[David Bailey]

The semicircle is a signal, rather than a lead. Haven't we already decided that signals are evil?

I think signals are only truly Evil if they're counter-intuitive - i.e. if they don't flow naturally as part of the sequence of movements. I don't know if a semi-circle is that counter-intuitive though - but then I've probably been warped by the ingrained Cult Of Ceroc.

I find it useful to lead beginners, definitely.

[TheTramp]

I find it useful to lead beginners, definitely.

Is that just because it's ingrained in you. And in them? If you'd both been taught something different, would that be just as useful?

Does anyone past the beginner stage actually go onto the dance floor, stand there, opposite their partner, and do a semi-circle and step back then? I thought that was just a myth!

When I teach now, I don't teach the semi-circle. Just some gentle pressure into the ladies hand. This probably makes me a bad person!

[David Bailey]

MJ semi-circle starts tend to be frame-breaking. This is of course fine if followed by some twisty thing where you want your partner to have floppy arms, but is less desirable if followed by a Columbian. They also tend to be signals, which some people dislike.
Finally, they encourage folks to start the dance in open, which is Bad.

Excellent points - they all sound like good reasons to me, thanks.

Although technically, each move starts (as the saying goes) "Nice and close" - cue appropriate joke from the CTA Bumper Book Of Jokes (I know there is one of these, don't tell me there isn't).

So the semi-circle per se is fine, but not as a signal or part of a move.

So what would be a better move / step to start off with then? Maybe a Manhatten? Nice and shadow-y, keeps frame, looks good...?

[Tessalicious]

Does anyone past the beginner stage actually go onto the dance floor, stand there, opposite their partner, and do a semi-circle and step back then? I thought that was just a myth!

I do (sometimes), and no-one has ever complained.

But then it's not only the semi-circle, and not the gigantic version of it that is done on stage for beginners to see and pick up. I do the compression that is necessary to make the lady step back, often including a small movement which could be interpreted as a semi-circle and presumably comes from there, because I find that it keeps my hand (and therefore my partner's hand) at an equal distance between us rather than resulting in collapse of the lady's arm (in general).

So I would say that, although MH is concerned that it breaks frame, it has an effect on developing a connection, particularly in beginners who don't know anything about connection yet. In fact, I would make the assertion that any leaders I know who haven't achieved 'connection' are those who simply try to push the lady's hand into her waist without giving her enough of a 'signal' to allow her to be ready for the compression that prevents that from happening.

I don't think the semi-circle is a bad thing in moderation, and it helps beginners. So shoot me.

[Gadget]

The semi-circle is preperation (signl) for the pressure of the lead back. From 'cold'; if you simply lead with a gentle push back, you have to apply gradual pressure and time it right so they step back at the same time as you - the follower can't react and move that quickly without some advanced warning.

If you teach side-steps with the count-in, then it's not necessary because you have already established a connection, although the semi-circle may emphisise the point "[circle]I'm going to lead you to step back...[push]now"

If you have a partner's hand guiding them onto the dance floor, then it's not necessary - you simply lead straight into a move. But if you find a place, stop and face our partner - then you need to give them warning.
{IMHO of course.}

Genie: The reason why some leads may seem to pull you about could be to do with the timeing involved in exactly when (within the count) you settle your weight. I dance with some people who are on thir toes and I have to lead "infront" of the beat, and others who are more 'grounded' where I have to lead fractionally "behind" the beat. :shrug: I'll try and work it out next time we dance