This week's routine?

[David Bailey]

A catapult is always awkward after a return.

Damned sight more awkward if the leader has his hand in a sway-lead position, I suspect, which is the end point of a shoulder-slide.

It's always going to be awkward for a beginner to lead a catapult directly after a Manspin, because new Leads are not particularly comfortable moving (hell - even DavidB doesn't like doing it ) which is probably why DavidJamesfeels happier leading a return - it gives him some breathing space.

Shoulder-slide, actually, and I felt happier because the positioning was better handhold-wise, not because I needed the space.

But it does feel weird to the follower. It would be better if a Catapult followed a Yo-yo, for instance. It's the anti-clockwise turn of a return going into the anti-clockwise turn under the arm bit of the catapult that feels odd.

Absolutely - but in this case, it's the lesser of the two evils. The point of a return, of course, being that it's, as the saying goes, a "return and step back", which gives positioning.

You see, it'll work that way because the lady has just completed a CLOCKWISE turn, prior to the anti-clockwise Return

Yes, that's better. But, a Catapult requires a step back to start with, and you don't get that with the end point of a shoulder-slide; it's a step across and the positioning is not the same as for a return-and-step-back.

[TheTramp]

Okie. Enough about yesterday. Today's routine is:

Arm Jive Push Spin
Shoulder Drop
Step Across
Side to Side

I'm teaching it in Dundee tonight

Anyhow, to return, or not to return

[Lou]

Damned sight more awkward if the leader has his hand in a sway-lead position, I suspect, which is the end point of a shoulder-slide.

Is it? I would've thought that a Sway-lead position isn't that far off a Catapult-lead position. I don't think the end of a shoulder-slide really leads itself to either move. (btw... I'd never put a return before a Sway, either).

Absolutely - but in this case, it's the lesser of the two evils. The point of a return, of course, being that it's, as the saying goes, a "return and step back", which gives positioning.

Perhaps it's the lesser of 2 evils from a Leader's point of view, but for we Followers....

Anyway - it's a silly combination of moves, which is why I said that the routines aren't all that well thought out.

[David Bailey]

Okie. Enough about yesterday. Today's routine is:

Arm Jive Push Spin
Shoulder Drop
Step Across
Side to Side

Ooh, this is fun, we can critique a routine without even doing it

I like the Arm Jive Push Spin - it's a great start to get people thinking about the rhythm, plus it teaches you how to lead / follow a spin, and catch right (I assume?), all in a single move. Big up the AJPS!

I think the Shoulder Drop looks a bit naff, mainly at the YMCA-stick-your-hand-out bit, but again it's teaching a lot of good things. But the Step across and Side-to-Side don't do much for me - bit boring and a bit too similar I reckon.

Anyhow, to return, or not to return

Well, how do you get from the (right-to-right) Side to Side into AJPS again? I'd be tempted to do two step-acrosses to get back into Left-to-Left, then a return (of course) after the side-to-side, to set up into the AJPS again...

[El Salsero Gringo]

Ooh, this is fun, we can critique a routine without even doing it

I like the Arm Jive Push Spin - it's a great start to get people thinking about the rhythm, plus it teaches you how to lead / follow a spin, and catch right (I assume?), all in a single move. Big up the AJPS!

I think the Shoulder Drop looks a bit naff, mainly at the YMCA-stick-your-hand-out bit, but again it's teaching a lot of good things. But the Step across and Side-to-Side don't do much for me - bit boring and a bit too similar I reckon.


Well, how do you get from the (right-to-right) Side to Side into AJPS again? I'd be tempted to do two step-acrosses to get back into Left-to-Left, then a return (of course) after the side-to-side, to set up into the AJPS again...

I find it hard to believe that you guys are debating the construction of the beginners routines ... how many years have you been dancing? Yet after detailed examination I totally fail to find any intentional irony in your posts. Worrying.

[David Bailey]

Is it? I would've thought that a Sway-lead position isn't that far off a Catapult-lead position. I don't think the end of a shoulder-slide really leads itself to either move.

Well, there are two people involved in both moves, they have that in common.

The shoulder slide naturally ends with both leader and follower slightly angled, and with the man's right hand facing down. This is not a natural lead-into-Catapult position.

Anyway - it's a silly combination of moves, which is why I said that the routines aren't all that well thought out.

In this case, I'd agree that the link isn't pretty. Which is why we're discussing it. A lot.

But to be fair, the Catapult's a bugger to get to the right position for, given the 16 basic moves. The only one I'd like would be a Comb - otherwise, I'd simply start with the Catapult using a right-hand hold.

[David Bailey]

I find it hard to believe that you guys are debating the construction of the beginners routines ... how many years have you been dancing? Yet after detailed examination I totally fail to find any intentional irony in your posts. Worrying.

Now you're kidding, right?

How much time and effort do Ceroc spend on this type of thing? A heck of a lot more than we have - they seem to think beginner's routines are pretty important. The first impression is vital - if you don't get the beginners coming back, as someone said somewhere, then there's no point in teaching.

Besides, this is almost the only thread talking about, you know, this Ceroc dancing stuff, in the forum at the moment...

[El Salsero Gringo]

But to be fair, the Catapult's a bugger to get to the right position for, given the 16 basic moves.

I don't follow that - explain further, please.

[David Bailey]

I don't follow that - explain further, please.

Because you pretty much have to start it with a step back - it's not easy from a sideways move, you have to be facing your partner straight on. Most of the other basic moves don't end up in that position.

Anyway, I thought you weren't interested?

[El Salsero Gringo]

Because you pretty much have to start it with a step back - it's not easy from a sideways move, you have to be facing your partner straight on. Most of the other basic moves don't end up in that position.

And you're not facing your partner straight on because .... ?

Anyway, I thought you weren't interested?

Obviously I'm not interested in a critique of the Ceroc canon, which, as you point out, would be heretical and might result in excommunication. It's just that you seem to be having some difficulty with the move and now that I'm a Ceroc teacher and all, I might be able to help you with where you're going wrong

[Lou]

Well, there are two people involved in both moves, they have that in common.

Sarky get. You're kidding, right? ***, it's similar in terms that they

• both have a right to right grip
• are best done before/instead of a return
• are best done if the woman is slightly angled beforehand
• the man's hand hold is facing upright
• the woman steps in and turns in the same direction in both moves
• the man steps forward as he wraps/turns the lady to his right
• end with the lady doing a clockwise turn/spin
• etc....

The shoulder slide naturally ends with both leader and follower slightly angled, and with the man's right hand facing down.

That might be how YOU do it, but most experienced men have their hand facing up at the end. Try it - it might help.

But to be fair, the Catapult's a bugger to get to the right position for,

I don't follow that - explain further, please.

Rubbish. In terms of beginner moves, I always feel it's best after a Yo-yo.

And you're not facing your partner straight on because .... ?

He's not leading it.

....now that I'm a Ceroc teacher and all....

Remember when I accused you of going all Evangelical. I had no idea you'd actually been born again!

[El Salsero Gringo]

Remember when I accused you of going all Evangelical. I had no idea you'd actually been born again!

It isn't that at all. It's just that a solid week of dancing Ceroc moves, exactly as they're taught, does rather drive home the point that if someone can't make a beginner's move work for them it just *might* not be the move that's at fault....

[Gadget]

Seriously, how do you end up in the neutral handhold from a shoulder-slide? Surely the natural handhold is with the guy's hand palm-down from that move? Of course, you can cheat, but that's, well, cheating.

How do you end up palm down? I think that you are blending two parts of the shoulder-slide into one instead of smoothing them: the shoulder slide and catch ends as close as you started when counted in and you are on the exact spot that your partner started on. You then take a step back.
What happens is that instead of placing the left foot beside the right on collection, it's stepped back on; twisting your body and extending into the step back. If I know it's a cattapult next, I will actually step slightly side-ways on the collection. You transfer the weight onto this foot, then it's a half-step forward, almost infront of your left foot while raising for the cattapult. I then do a quick transfer of weight to extend my right leg and block the path in a more stable stance for the next count, but that's just me trying to maintain a slot and add a bit of 'style'
I also try to collect as early as I can (not rotate quickly, but catch by my own left hip) and lead the step back - normally results in me stepping slightly forward rather than back on the "step back". {which means that I don't lead it "properly" either }

In fact - looking at the list of beginner moves:
~Very few of these moves don't require a return to get back to the starting point. Try doing a catapult then a manspin, without the return...

No problem: Lead the spin out from the cattapult so that the follower actually takes a step infornt of you before spinning; don't "flick" left, but carry on turning them and flick forward instead; collect early (at the follower's right hip) so you can slow them to face and have the weight on the right foot; start moving forward into your man-spin as they would be stepping back.

You want a fun one: try doing an octopus in normal time, removing the step backs.

Are you playing Devil's Advocate, Gadget? Yes, they do. And all combinations are possible. But I'm just explaining why some feel nicer than others.

Moi? It feels 'nicer' to have a spin/turn one way, then the other. It feels 'smoother' to continue the motion in the one direction. But it has to continue the motion rather than be broken with a step back or return. And that is tricky.

{Good explination btw }

Catapult requires a step back to start with, and you don't get that with the end point of a shoulder-slide; it's a step across and the positioning is not the same as for a return-and-step-back.

How do you lead a shoulder slide? Take a 'cowboy' stance, and root the left foot. Pivot 90º forward to the left in the same stance and root the right foot. Pivot a further 90º back to the left. That's the motion the body should take and the weight transfer. the follower should simply be walking forward, that second pivot providing the push lead (from your back) to turn them to face you so you both pivot at the same time. The ending is exactly the same as the start (on opposite sides), even down to the X on the floor you both started on. (Oh, start with stepping back on the right - you don't have to take such a big step on the first pivot*)

Do you want another egg to suck?

{* whomever would have thought the day would come that I was advocating footwork }

Arm Jive Push Spin
Shoulder Drop
Step Across
Side to Side

Anyhow, to return, or not to return

If you don't put one in between the shoulder drop and the step across, people will be moving rows horizontally rather than up and down!

[David Bailey]

And you're not facing your partner straight on because .... ?

Weeell, OK, you can end up facing your partner, but obviously there's a lateral component to the move in that case, unless you want to actually walk through your partner of course. So it's not an exact step back, and there is some sideways momentum involved. Which complicates things for a beginner.

As for the handhold, I was talkling complete rubbish, please forgive me. What I meant to say was that, because of that sideways momentum, the handhold is more naturally a handshake hold than a "catapult lead" hold at the step-back point.

It's just that you seem to be having some difficulty with the move and now that I'm a Ceroc teacher and all, I might be able to help you with where you're going wrong

Awww, that's the nicest thing anyone's said to me, ever.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Weeell, OK, you can end up facing your partner, but obviously there's a lateral component to the move in that case, unless you want to actually walk through your partner of course. So it's not an exact step back, and there is some sideways momentum involved. Which complicates things for a beginner.

As for the handhold, I was talkling complete rubbish, please forgive me. What I meant to say was that, because of that sideways momentum, the handhold is more naturally a handshake hold than a "catapult lead" hold at the step-back point.

I confess I'm completely mystified by talk of lateral components and sideways momentum .... And what on earth is a "catapult lead" hold???

You hardly need to travel sideways more than half your shoulder width, which means that the mere rotation of your body from facing your partner to facing sideways to facing your partner again provides most of get-out-of-the way room. The step in as you take your hand to your shoulder is naturally a step forward, and the step back is naturally a step back. I don't see the need to complicate things further!

If you're not facing your partner at the end of a shoulder slide it's because you're being lazy and not turning to face her....

...and don't forget to keep a loose hand-hold as you go in to the catapult part - which will fix any problems about being in the wrong hold.

I know you know all that because you demonstrate the move in beginner's classes!

[David Bailey]

I confess I'm completely mystified by talk of lateral components and sideways momentum .... And what on earth is a "catapult lead" hold???

But... but... you're a Teacher! You're Clever!

Oh well, I give up, I'm clearly just lazy.

So, how did the: Arm Jive Push Spin / Shoulder Drop / Step Across / Side to Side routine go?

[TheTramp]

So, how did the: Arm Jive Push Spin / Shoulder Drop / Step Across / Side to Side routine go?

Seemed fine to me. Even though I dislike the side to side move (personal opinion here, nothing to do with it's "value" as a move).

[Lou]

And what on earth is a "catapult lead" hold???

3 question marks? Blimey!

Mutter... mutter... honestly... youth of today.... etc...

A "Catapult Hold" is traditionally one of those Butcher's Hook type handgrips, or the variation that is meant to prevent fingernails digging into your partner's skin. It was meant to make the "bowling action" easier. HTH.

[El Salsero Gringo]

But... but... you're a Teacher! You're Clever!

Don't ever make that mistake... Lou does all the time, and look what it's done to her.

[Lou]

Don't ever make that mistake... Lou does all the time, and look what it's done to her.

Yeah, David. The black eyeliner & nail varnish wouldn't suit you...