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Thread: Class Levels

  1. #61
    Registered User Dynamo's Avatar
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    Re: Class Levels

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    Would people really spend money on petrol, and time in the car, just to get somewhere to save £7??

    Of course, if it's the closest party night to Scotland on that particular occasion!!


    perhaps like Ceroc London, venues can reward frequent visitors to many venues in the franchise with extra discounted nites. Bet the name changers will soon look pretty sick then.

    couse i may just benefit from this in some slight way

    Dynamo

  2. #62
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Class Levels

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    However a double speed travelling return is hardly a terribly ‘’advanced’’ move, but few of the women did that well. Most were too slow for the tracks playing or the count, most were off balance and most didn’t go to where I was doing my very best to lead them. Some were all three.
    There is not the same emphasis on spinning in this country. We certainly don't see it as a pre-requisite to be considered advanced. (LilyB was somewhat bemused after her trip to Oz upon realising her dislike of double spins meant she wasn't really "advanced" over there).

    More generally, "advanced" means very different things to different people. A class may be labelled advanced because it requires excellent spinning technique, or confidence with drops, a really good grasp of musicality, etc. If all the description says is "advanced", then it is very hard to know whether it's right for you.

  3. #63
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Class Levels

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    There is not the same emphasis on spinning in this country. We certainly don't see it as a pre-requisite to be considered advanced. (LilyB was somewhat bemused after her trip to Oz upon realising her dislike of double spins meant she wasn't really "advanced" over there).
    Whilst I wouldn't go as far as to call it a pre-requisite, we could probably spend a bit more time teaching / practising spinning in the UK.

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    Re: Class Levels

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    More generally, "advanced" means very different things to different people. A class may be labelled advanced because it requires excellent spinning technique, or confidence with drops, a really good grasp of musicality, etc. If all the description says is "advanced", then it is very hard to know whether it's right for you.

    The term "Advanced" should be whatever the instructor deems it to mean. But without actually imparting this information to people who may attend, how are they to know?

    Why not actually qualify what you expect people to be able to do rather than label "beginner"/"intermediate"/"advanced" ?

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    Re: Class Levels

    If there's an excess of leaders, then the minimum entry requirement for a leader becomes "better than dancing with thin air". Admittedly that isn't always passed.

  6. #66
    Registered User NZ Monkey's Avatar
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    Re: Class Levels

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    There is not the same emphasis on spinning in this country. We certainly don't see it as a pre-requisite to be considered advanced. (LilyB was somewhat bemused after her trip to Oz upon realising her dislike of double spins meant she wasn't really "advanced" over there).
    Oh I realise - but in my defence the class was advertised as ''high velocity'' and ''high energy'', which should be reasonable clues. I also strongly suspect that while Lily may not *like* double speed spins - she's still quite capable of doing them

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin
    More generally, "advanced" means very different things to different people. A class may be labelled advanced because it requires excellent spinning technique, or confidence with drops, a really good grasp of musicality, etc. If all the description says is "advanced", then it is very hard to know whether it's right for you.
    Again, I'm not disagreeing with you. I was just using the spinning as a specific example from that class.

    Personally I would think that an ''advanced'' dancer should have all of these things, regardless of their personal tastes though. I can understand if injury prevents them being good at something, but that isn't often the case. Of course, that's just my opinion

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    Re: Class Levels

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    Oh I realise - but in my defence the class was advertised as ''high velocity'' and ''high energy'', which should be reasonable clues.
    Well, "high velocity" or "high energy" indicates fast dancing or energetic dancing to me, not advanced dancing. It's possible to be a "high energy" dancer whilst still being very intermediate.

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    Re: Class Levels

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    It's possible to be a "high energy" dancer whilst still being very intermediate.
    I'd say that it's usually synonymous, rather than just merely possible!

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    Re: Class Levels

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Well, "high velocity" or "high energy" indicates fast dancing or energetic dancing to me, not advanced dancing. It's possible to be a "high energy" dancer whilst still being very intermediate.
    Arrrghhhh....Ok fine....

    *NZ Monkey takes a few deep, cleansing breaths*

    It was advertised as ''high energy'', ''high velocity'' and had the (Adv) sign (in blue if I remember correctly) next to the name of the class.

    And before anyone asks - yes that did mean it was an advanced class.

  10. #70
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Class Levels

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    Oh I realise - but in my defence the class was advertised as ''high velocity'' and ''high energy'', which should be reasonable clues.
    At the risk of adding fuel to the fire, I'd personally guess that a class advertised as "high velocity" would be to fast music, while a class that was "high energy" would have a strong hip-hop/funk component. The trend of teachers choosing workshop names based on marketability rather than descriptive accuracy does not help here.

    I also strongly suspect that while Lily may not *like* double speed spins - she's still quite capable of doing them
    With apologies to Lily if I misunderstood her, she did actually say something along the lines of "Strictly speaking, I don't count as advanced in Australia because I don't spin well enough".

    Personally I would think that an ''advanced'' dancer should have all of these things, regardless of their personal tastes though. I can understand if injury prevents them being good at something, but that isn't often the case. Of course, that's just my opinion
    If you do that, "advanced dancer" is a somewhat global evaluation. Which is fine, but in that case I would say there is a clear distinction between an advanced dancer and an advanced class. For example if I were teaching an advanced aerials class, I'd rather have a beginner Cerocer with lots of gymnastics experience than someone with 10 years dance experience but who's never done an aerial.

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    Re: Class Levels

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    ...I'd rather have a beginner Cerocer with lots of gymnastics experience than someone with 10 years dance experience but who's never done an aerial.


    Surely dancers can have different levels of ability in different areas. An individual may be advanced in terms of their musicality and connection, and therefore would have no problems going to workshops on these things. By comparison, the same individual may have never done a drop in their life so would be out of place in an advanced dips and drops class.

    This is where having the description of the class content become necessary. Having a title and (adv) next to it may not tell you that the class is going to require you to have a wide repertoire of moves including aerials and drops, and you could end up having people in there who may well struggle. If it was only technique that was being focussed upon (like tidying up the delivery of certain moves, or working on connection) then the same dancers may well do fine.

    (Ok OK, I know the title of "dips and drops" will give it away that you are expected to do dips and drops, but if the title is more abiguous, and the teacher is using the aforementioned trend of popular titles to get bums in seats - or feet on dancefloors in this case - then it will be completely necessary IMO)

  12. #72
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Class Levels

    Yes - without getting into the quagmire of "what is an advanced dancer" again, I think I'd like to see a "pre-requisites" bit before each class in the class description, at a weekender.

    If we have to sacrifice some of the "XXX has been dancing since conception" stuff, well that's a sacrifice I'm prepared to make.

  13. #73
    Registered User NZ Monkey's Avatar
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    Re: Class Levels

    To be honest, in this case I'm not sure it would have helped much to have a further description of the class content. I thought what was on the brochure was perfectly acceptable.

    I accept that there are a wide range of skills at varying levels amoung dancers, and that some are very advanced in some while less so in others. Nobody fits perfectly into convinient pre-defined boxes all the time after all.

    --------------------slightly off topic-----------------------
    I think it would be unusual for someone to come a long way in one area of skill (within the Ceroc ''curriculum'' for lack of a better word) without gaining some ability in the other areas either through direct teaching or osmosis though. The gymnast example is a perfect one of transferable skill in one specific area. I'm picking that the same gymnast would become much better in the other areas much faster than the typical cerocer would as well though considering how many of those ''soft'' gymnastics skills are common to dancing.
    ----------------------------------------------------------

    Aerials and drops are both very easily recognised categories of techniques, and their inclusion in a description immediately gives a good idea about the nature of a class. If you don't think you're experienced enough in a particular area like these they are easy to avoid.

    Simons class had one sliding dip/drop in it. The rest of the class description would probably read something like:
    ''some move I've never heard of, some high speed spinning, another move I've never heard of (but this time both partners are sliding one after the other).....''
    It gets cumbersome very quickly, isn't really as informative as you'd like it to be and wouldn't fit in the brochure anyway.

    Perhaps all that would need to be said is ''technically challenging techniques'', but isn't that the nature of ''advanced'' techniques anyway? They were techniques being taught in an advanced class after all.


    At the risk of adding fuel to the fire, I'd personally guess that a class advertised as "high velocity" would be to fast music, while a class that was "high energy" would have a strong hip-hop/funk component. The trend of teachers choosing workshop names based on marketability rather than descriptive accuracy does not help here.
    At the risk of sounding like a pedant, ''velocity'' is a vector quantity, requiring both magnitude (speed) and direction. Velocity is all about movement, not bpm.

    Mind you, I studied physics at university for 6 years and the common meaning may well be different from how I perceive it. I can make similar arguments about the use of the word ‘’leverage’’ in dancing circles, but it wouldn’t really achieve anything. If everyone is using the same language that’s the only important point. Which leads to....
    If you do that, "advanced dancer" is a somewhat global evaluation. Which is fine, but in that case I would say there is a clear distinction between an advanced dancer and an advanced class.
    An absolutely valid point, but that’s a view that you've come to after considerable experience dancing.

    I think the distinction between a ''advanced dancer'' and an ''advanced class'' will be lost on most people who are not ''advanced dancers'' already unless it's specifically pointed out to them. It's too subtle a distinction to use when mass marketing class content at a weekender.

    I’d tend to think of an advanced class to be one for advanced dancers, and an advanced dancer has a broad range of well developed skills. It’s intuitive, if not strictly speaking correct. Not many people go to the lengths we do to define these concepts, even if we don’t agree with them most of the time. The people who don’t are the more sensible ones IMO

    Of course in special circumstances such as the gymnast, I wouldn't have any issue with letting them do the class as they are clearly competent enough to perform all the techniques. Even if Lily wouldn't ''strictly speaking'' be considered an advanced dancer in Australia if she didn't spin very well, I have no doubt they recognised her obvious skill anyway

    The advantage the Aussies (at least the individual companies) have in a debate like this is that they have common frame of reference for what an advanced dancer is, whereas we don't. Even if you may not agree with the Aussie definition (and I'm sure many Aussies don't either) at least they can speak a common language and have a good idea of what students are capable of when creating workshops aimed at various levels of ability. That is something we can't say about the UK, and that's why I think some sort of card system would be beneficial if employed in the right way.

    Right, there goes my lunch break......ummmm. Oh look, there's more work on my desk now.

  14. #74
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Class Levels

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    To be honest, in this case I'm not sure it would have helped much to have a further description of the class content. I thought what was on the brochure was perfectly acceptable.
    It's probably true that the people you most need to convince are the ones who won't read the descriptions anyway. But at least you can point to the text if someone complains that they didn't get it.

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    Perhaps all that would need to be said is ''technically challenging techniques'', but isn't that the nature of ''advanced'' techniques anyway? They were techniques being taught in an advanced class after all.
    Nooo!!

    "Technically challenging" means different things to different people. To me, that would mean stuff about balance, weight transfer, posture, connection, exact positioning, and so on.

    But no-one says the descriptions of the class have to be mini-essays - could be just a couple of words:
    • For a "high energy" class: "physically demanding" .
    • For a class with lots of moves: "complex routine".
    • For an AT class: "precise movements"

    and so on.

    Heck, you could even have icons for these if you want - that's what they do with hotel descriptions etc.

    That way, you could stay well away from ever using the "A" word, which to me would be a bonus.

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    The advantage the Aussies (at least the individual companies) have in a debate like this is that they have common frame of reference for what an advanced dancer is, whereas we don't.
    This is true. We're very much hamstrung by a lack of such definition; although by necessity it would be a narrow definition, at least we'd have one.

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    Re: Class Levels

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    I think the distinction between a ''advanced dancer'' and an ''advanced class'' will be lost on most people who are not ''advanced dancers'' already unless it's specifically pointed out to them. It's too subtle a distinction to use when mass marketing class content at a weekender.

    I’d tend to think of an advanced class to be one for advanced dancers, and an advanced dancer has a broad range of well developed skills. It’s intuitive, if not strictly speaking correct. Not many people go to the lengths we do to define these concepts, even if we don’t agree with them most of the time. The people who don’t are the more sensible ones IMO
    At the risk of getting abuse Hurled at me! Surley a True Advanced Dancer would not need to attend Advanced Classes! or am I confusing myself with what an expert is?!? I may be alone but I would expect that the advanced classes would attract alot of Intermediate dancers that would manage easily in the Intermediate classes but find it not much of a challange! And personnaly I like to be challanged when I'm learning as it makes the whole process more fun and gives more of a sense of acheivement!Therefore are there different levels of Advanced as well as Intermediate? And how do you move from being an intermediate to and advanced dancer. Is it time, experience, background or natural ability?

    Slightly off topic but in Fleet Adam and Tas's Funky Jive was advertised as advanced and it was more complicated. I found it difficult but think I managed ok! I had a fantastic time! Prior to attending tho I asked my local teacher whether she thought I would manage and also spoke to Tas when I was down. She said to join in and if I was finding it too difficult I could just sit myself out. Surely if your thinking of doing an advanced class but haven't been dancing long or unsure of your own ability you would ask someone you respects opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    "Technically challenging" means different things to different people. To me, that would mean stuff about balance, weight transfer, posture, connection, exact positioning, and so on.

    But no-one says the descriptions of the class have to be mini-essays - could be just a couple of words:
    • For a "high energy" class: "physically demanding" .
    • For a class with lots of moves: "complex routine".
    • For an AT class: "precise movements"

    and so on.

    Heck, you could even have icons for these if you want - that's what they do with hotel descriptions etc.

    That way, you could stay well away from ever using the "A" word, which to me would be a bonus.
    I think something like this would be a good idea! especially for some classes that the title doesn't give much away.

  16. #76
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    Re: Class Levels

    Quote Originally Posted by Freya View Post
    At the risk of getting abuse Hurled at me! Surley a True Advanced Dancer would not need to attend Advanced Classes! or am I confusing myself with what an expert is?!?
    Is this not half the problem? Here we are again back at the definition of "advanced". Not sure I agree with you Freya- it sounds like for you an advanced dancer is synonymous with "expert"- but it does illustrate nicely the range of definitions possible.

    However, I do feel the need to point out here that even an Advanced dancer, however you define the term, is in need of a challenge to keep them sharp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freya
    I may be alone but I would expect that the advanced classes would attract alot of Intermediate dancers that would manage easily in the Intermediate classes but find it not much of a challange!
    If they're no longer finding the intermediate classes a challenge wouldn't that suggest that they're ready for the next step up- ie an Advanced class. They might find it difficult, but so do most beginners when they move up to intermediate. That's the point

    Quote Originally Posted by Freya
    Therefore are there different levels of Advanced as well as Intermediate?
    Of course...

    Quote Originally Posted by Freya
    And how do you move from being an intermediate to and advanced dancer. Is it time, experience, background or natural ability?
    How long have you got? This highly complicated issue has been discussed many times before on many threads... Not going to look for them now but some of them make interesting reading

    Quote Originally Posted by Freya
    Surely if your thinking of doing an advanced class but haven't been dancing long or unsure of your own ability you would ask someone you respects opinion.
    Of course, in an ideal world this would happen. Unfortunately we live in the real one, much as we sometimes like to pretend otherwise, and in the real world not everyone is as honest (humble?) about their own abilities. You only have to look at the number of people who put themselves up to intermediate well before they're ready to see that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Freya
    I think something like this would be a good idea! especially for some classes that the title doesn't give much away.
    I agree... would be a good way of giving an idea of the level of skills/knowledge required to do the class without those troublesome labels...

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    Re: Class Levels

    When I was training as a programmer I used to go to advanced lectures given by British Computer Society geeks. Often I would have little idea what they were talking about, and seemingly the experience hardly advanced me at all. However I came away with a view to the horizon and a good idea of which direction to travel, and how far I had to go. It was a case of 2% inspiration with the 98% perspiration, i.e. the practise, still to do.
    I can see it is a different thing in a partner activity. The slow could be seen as holding back the quick, but on that basis I would not have joined a beginners class. "They" could all do it. I would be holding the ladies back. I think, where danger is not involved, we should and let nature take its course and let those out of their depth sink or swim.

    ( drown you ... , drown! )

  18. #78
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    Re: Class Levels

    Quote Originally Posted by Alice View Post
    Is this not half the problem? Here we are again back at the definition of "advanced". Not sure I agree with you Freya- it sounds like for you an advanced dancer is synonymous with "expert"- but it does illustrate nicely the range of definitions possible.

    If they're no longer finding the intermediate classes a challenge wouldn't that suggest that they're ready for the next step up- ie an Advanced class. They might find it difficult, but so do most beginners when they move up to intermediate. That's the point
    Sorry don't think i explained this properly! I'm not great at expressing what I'm thinking in writing and it can come out in a bit of a ramble! What I think I meant was that like A high intermediate would find the intermediate classes easy enough and not much of a challange then would an advanced dancer sometimes feel the same with some advanced classes! (won't say all) Then Like An intermediate would move up to adavanced...?...Would an advanced dancer now be classed as an expert! Re-reading! I'm not sure I really wrote that but thats what I was thinking!

    With re: to the challange bit then yes I would agree that this makes them ready for the Advanced class! BUT are they actually managing to do the moves properly in Freestyle. I know one guy who can do the classes well and doesn't find them a challange (aparently) yet put him into free style and he goes to pot and back to beginner moves! so would he be ready for an Advanced class! I think that the fact that you can do the classes and not find them a challange is one part of it! but I think you have to be confident in freestyle as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alice View Post
    However, I do feel the need to point out here that even an Advanced dancer, however you define the term, is in need of a challenge to keep them sharp.
    Oh definately!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alice View Post
    How long have you got? This highly complicated issue has been discussed many times before on many threads... Not going to look for them now but some of them make interesting reading
    This was supposed to be a Rhetorical question. Highlightlighting that the same difficulties from going from beginner to intermediate are again posed in the transition from Intermediate to Advanced. And that there is no correct answer to the question. Again waffleing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alice View Post
    Of course, in an ideal world this would happen. Unfortunately we live in the real one, much as we sometimes like to pretend otherwise, and in the real world not everyone is as honest (humble?) about their own abilities. You only have to look at the number of people who put themselves up to intermediate well before they're ready to see that.
    Totally agree with you! But I would hope that the Idea of Advanced gives the impression that you might not manage it to some of them! but as you said it's not a perfect world!

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    Re: Class Levels

    Also just thought I'd say that I at southport I only attended one class because I decided that I didn't really like the huge numbers being taught at once! Also as minnie said the different levels in the class described as intermediate!

    I learn better with smaller numbers or am I just spoiled living in Scotland?

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    Re: Class Levels

    Quote Originally Posted by Freya View Post
    am I just spoiled living in Scotland?
    Absolutely. For so many reasons, not just Ceroc

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