Class Levels

[MartinHarper]

If you're running a class which is an Advanced class suitable only for a very small number of people at the weekender, it makes sense to run it in one of the smaller teaching areas. At Bliss, Simon Borland's classes were all in the biggest teaching area: the main room. I think that was a mistake.

[TiggsTours]

Well we have that at Ceroc as well. You should have been dancing 6/12 weeks before trying an Intermediate class. Does that mean that you are Intermediate at 12 weeks? I've heard it mention that you should have 1 year's experience to attend an Advanced workshop. It doesn't mean that everyone dancing for 12 weeks is at the same level. Time spent learning is only really a guide.

Really? Being told that you should have been doing ceroc for 6 weeks is the same as being told you should have been attending regular classes for between 3 and 6 months? I see plenty of people go to intermediate ceroc classes, because they've done 6 classes spread out over about 3 or 4 months, who really aren't ready for them.

You probably can't do this at most weekenders. I expect you can at smaller classes though or if you were booking up for a local workshop (for local people ).

Why not? I think teachers should be available to offer this type of advice to people at anytime where they are in attendance as teachers, and people are paying them to be just that. In their own time, fine, but if they are at a weekender as a teacher, then they should be approachable for this type of advice.

Hmmm. Thinking about it, my thoughts are that I would have no problem with people doing any class at all at a weekend event. It would be impossible to stop them anyhow, so there's not really a lot of point in moaning about it. It's only 50 minutes, and you can't really get through a lot in that time. Even dancing with someone who shouldn't really be in the class, you can pick up ideas, and technique which you can then practice later on with someone else who can achieve the required level.

Ah, but I'm talking about the smaller weekenders, which have smaller classes, not the weekenders on the scale of Bliss, or Jive Party, or Southport. I can see that this approach wouldn't work there, but a brief description of what should be expected on the timetable would avoid people turning up on the off chance that they might be able to do the class. Sometimes you see a class listed, especially if its listed as intermediate, and you don't really know what level it will be aimed at. To say "To do this class you need to have been social dancing on a regular basis for at least 4 months, and be confident in performing the following moves" would be really beneficial to people who aren't sure.

If it is causing you that much problem, then arrange to do the class as a fixed couple with someone at your own level, since you know it's not going to be to your liking before you even go in there.

I've never agreed with this approach, it leads to either elitism, or to people not realising they're actually doing it wrong, as they don't get the opportunity to do the move with other partners until freestyle, by then its a bit late.

For smaller classes/workshops either longer in time, or run on a regular basis, then I would say that it matters much more, and maybe it's up to the teacher to 'police' it.

[TheTramp]

Ah, but I'm talking about the smaller weekenders, which have smaller classes, not the weekenders on the scale of Bliss, or Jive Party, or Southport. I can see that this approach wouldn't work there, but a brief description of what should be expected on the timetable would avoid people turning up on the off chance that they might be able to do the class. Sometimes you see a class listed, especially if its listed as intermediate, and you don't really know what level it will be aimed at. To say "To do this class you need to have been social dancing on a regular basis for at least 4 months, and be confident in performing the following moves" would be really beneficial to people who aren't sure.

I've never agreed with this approach, it leads to either elitism, or to people not realising they're actually doing it wrong, as they don't get the opportunity to do the move with other partners until freestyle, by then its a bit late.

Really? I rather thought that we were all talking about a class that took place at the recent Bliss event here. Sorry. My mistake. Though, I will agree that I think maybe a little more description of the classes would help - especially if the title of the class isn't very descriptive....

You'll note that I didn't say I agreed with the approach, purely said that people could, if it'd maybe stop them moaning about it afterwards. Maybe I should have put a at the end. I don't see that it leads to elitism though - my main concern would be that there wouldn't be enough men left for the number of ladies wanting to do the class. Then we'd have to read all the moans from the ladies

[NZ Monkey]

It wasn't Simon & Nicole, wrong class - it was Simon & Sue

Some of the students in the class I was talking about 'nearly' got it, but I really didn't see any doing the whole routine properly (I am sure you were not in that class Shannon I would have recognised you and you are a very good dancer and certainly competent to do an advance class!!)

:Blush: Why thank you Minnie

I was talking about Simon Boreland and Sue’s class though. I was in both of the morning classes they ran. Sue is particularly fun to dance with

I suppose I must have been having a mediocre morning for you not to have noticed me then :cry:

I also sat in on Simon and Nicole’s aerials class and did their drops one, which were both labelled as advanced and why I made the comparison with what they had to say at the beginning (of course, their material was also considerably more dangerous so perhaps that was justified on other grounds anyway…)

In a class the size of most of the ones at weekenders, probably not much more. And lets face it, that's what it's like at those events. I'd never go to a weekender of that sort of size to really learn something. Maybe go expecting to pick up a few things, but really expecting to learn, no.

Of course, there is a proviso that after the first 2 weekenders I went to, I stopped doing the classes at all (unless asked to partner someone), and went purely for the 9 hours freestyle in the nights, with music that I didn't expect to get at my regular classes.

To be fair, I think most people who have been around a while have a similar attitude. There are much better ways to improve when you’re at a level like the one you’re at right now than attending 50 minute weekender classes – and that’s if improvement is still something you care about anyway.

There’s nothing wrong with that, and I agree with what you’re saying.

The weekenders ‘’are’’ advertising some classes as advanced for good reason though, so the organisers bear some responsibility for (and I’m looking for a way to say this that doesn’t involve me looking like a snob or worse) ‘’quality control’’. I’d be very disappointed if they weren’t there at all, but if people are going to go to them anyway regardless of whether they’re ready or not…..

A lot of the more advanced people are in a position to share their experiences with others through the social network that is MJ and that works well enough for them. Most of the ‘’aspirants’’ don’t have that kind of luxury though, and it’s them that I’m thinking about when I talking about classes being held back by people who have either overestimated their own ability or don’t expect to get it but go along because nothing says they can’t.

[killingtime]

Really? Being told that you should have been doing ceroc for 6 weeks is the same as being told you should have been attending regular classes for between 3 and 6 months? I see plenty of people go to intermediate ceroc classes, because they've done 6 classes spread out over about 3 or 4 months, who really aren't ready for them.

I've seen people who have been doing Ceroc for 6 weeks attending every week who aren't ready for them either. The point is you are attaching the experience of the dancer to the time they have been attending. We don't say "you should be ready for intermediate when you know 12 beginner moves well and can include them in freestyle". I expect you'll find there are vastly different levels of experience at that stage. Though there also is with moves you should, if everyone is paying attention to skill requirements, be able to guarantee a foundation.

Why not? I think teachers should be available to offer this type of advice to people at anytime where they are in attendance as teachers, and people are paying them to be just that.

Well in larger events because they probably don't have the time. If 100 people came to ask them if they'd be ok, even if the teacher spent 1 minute with each they are doing an hour and a half pre-class assessment for an hour class.

Ah, but I'm talking about the smaller weekenders, which have smaller classes,

You never mentioned that. I was talking about both large events and small. The smaller events do mean, generally, that you can have more direct interaction with the teacher.

[Dynamo]

Really? Being told that you should have been doing ceroc for ....between 3 and 6 months?.... who really aren't ready for them.

I wont knock people for having a go or just trying to pick up something, but sometimes would they not benefit better when experts have enjoyed an advanced class they then leave fresh and more ready to help a beguiner or intermediate with more apropriate help.

Why not? I think teachers should be available to offer this type of advice to people at anytime where they are in attendance as teachers, and people are paying them to be just that. In their own time, fine, but if they are at a weekender as a teacher, then they should be approachable for this type of advice.

Teachers should be there to help, but they also need their own special time to enjoy with friends, special parteners and just other dancers.

Ah, but I'm talking about the smaller weekenders, which have smaller classes,.... To say "To do this class you need to have been social dancing on a regular basis for at least 4 months, and be confident in performing the following moves" would be really beneficial to people who aren't sure.

I've never agreed with this approach, it leads to either elitism, or to people not realising they're actually doing it wrong, as they don't get the opportunity to do the move with other partners until freestyle, by then its a bit late.

Dancing in fixed partners is cool in 3 ways only for me.
a) helping a friend of a very different ability, so as to not disrupt a class
b) spending special time with a special person,
c) or a friend finding the moves too personal for their sensabilities and would otherwise not attend

Eliteism NEVER
we are all learning, just at different points on different scales.

If you're running a class which is an Advanced class suitable only for a very small number of people at the weekender, it makes sense to run it in one of the smaller teaching areas. At Bliss, Simon Borland's classes were all in the biggest teaching area: the main room. I think that was a mistake.

good call Martin, well put, downstairs we heard SB mike overtalk (& vice versa?) in our crowded class with H&N

In a class the size of most of the ones at weekenders, probably not much more. And lets face it, that's what it's like at those events. I'd never go to a weekender of that sort of size to really learn something. Maybe go expecting to pick up a few things, but really expecting to learn, no.

Of course, there is a proviso that after the first 2 weekenders I went to, I stopped doing the classes at all (unless asked to partner someone), and went purely for the 9 hours freestyle in the nights, with music that I didn't expect to get at my regular classes.

Firstly immence for you
Certainly you must have reached a level to learn in the class entered, and there comes a point where not much is new till you stray far from your chosen styles.

For me, Much of my early improvements came from my early weeklenders where i saw what the better dancers did in classes and freestyles. You picked some moves up to take away, but also learnt so many other things about musicallity, quality of lead, improvisation. So for me it was to learn both from classes and also my elders and betters

How much more can you cover in a 50 minute period if your class is at the right level for the material?

I agree about the fixed partner thing, but life being what it is it isn’t always possible to have one. It isn’t people who aren’t quite up to a class like that who bug me – it’s the fact that if they’re in the rotation they slow down everyone who should be. A teacher can ignore fixed partners who clearly are not up to the material, but they can’t do that with the rotation so easily. At least they can’t if there are lots of people who shouldn’t be there in it.

A very good view, much
That is fair to all, the fixed partener who cannot do yet, but wont rotate, may have saved a class and so desrve our help and respect that they might get help after the class if desired.

The more advanced dancers paid the same amount as the less advanced one. If specifically ‘’advanced’’ classes are going to be run for them then doesn’t it stand to reason that you give them the best value you can? An advanced dancer in a beginners class isn’t going to cause problems, but a beginner in an advanced class will. It’s worse than not having the beginner there at all (and having to wait out) since their partner will have concentrate on preventing them from hurting themselves a lot of the time, rather than on what they’re supposed to be doing.

I tread carefully here, but do agree some form of self assesed entry may well help.

A point of interest is; i found Storm had a Selection of beguiner or a selection of advanced classes running simultaneously , where do you go for your ability?. Bliss has been so much better in this respect with a good mix of abilities at amost points in the schedule.

[TheTramp]

A point of interest is; i found Storm had a Selection of beguiner or a selection of advanced classes running simultaneously , where do you go for your ability?. Bliss has been so much better in this respect with a good mix of abilities at amost points in the schedule.

That's a very good point, and just goes to show how much influence the organisers can have over who attends what class. If the advanced class had a beginners class running simultaneously, then it's no wonder that there were people in the advanced class who maybe shouldn't have been there.

I guess that it's important to always have at least one 'intermediate' level class running, since probably most of the people who go to these events are at that level (albeit, at different levels within that level!).

[Dynamo]

I've seen people who have been doing Ceroc for 6 weeks attending every week who aren't ready for them either. The point is you are attaching the experience of the dancer to the time they have been attending. ..

...

I have known ladies rocket up the scale with a blend of ability and dancing with good dancers and others who move slowly. Guys tend to grow experience more slowly, but some have rocketed past me while others have seemed to fail to move.

Time is a quick measure, but a dance with a taxi or experienced dancer could quickly rate a dancers progress.

Lots of human reasons why this is not perfect, but honnest feedback from the better dancers could certainly guide on ones abilities.

[David Bailey]

OK, how long before DJ comes by and starts talking about coloured cards?

About a day I reckon.

Can anybody suggest one that doesn't alienate, ostracise, or divide?

You've got two different problems:

• Communication problem about how "Beg/Int/Adv" progression should work in a weekender environment - i.e. a natural misunderstanding that one should follow on from the others. Should be fixable, with "linking" announcements by the teachers at the end of the first two lessons, and / or appropriate caveats and descriptions in the timetable documents.
• The age-old "What is an intermediate / advanced dancer in MJ?" question, to which there is no real answer at the moment, for reasons we've discussed, a lot. And no, there isn't a method that provides level descriptions without some element of alienation, ostracism or division.

[MartinHarper]

Should be fixable, with "linking" announcements by the teachers at the end of the first two lessons, and / or appropriate caveats and descriptions in the timetable documents.

Personally I think they could drop the descriptions of teachers and include that info (and more) in the descriptions of classes - particularly for those teachers only teaching one class.

[ducasi]

(Talking about fixed partners...)

I've never agreed with this approach, it leads to either elitism, or to people not realising they're actually doing it wrong, as they don't get the opportunity to do the move with other partners until freestyle, by then its a bit late.

Based on my experience, and on the discussion going on here, at a typical large weekender, I don't think I'll ever do a class at one of these events again unless I'm with a fixed partner, or I really, really want to do the class.

Call me elitist or hot-shot if you like, but being with a partner you know is equally capable and with whom you can discuss things as you're going along (and afterwards) can make such a difference to the outcome of the class. At least, that's what I found in my two Southport experiences.

[MartinHarper]

Based on my experience, and on the discussion going on here, at a typical large weekender, I don't think I'll ever do a class at one of these events again unless I'm with a fixed partner, or I really, really want to do the class.

I just made exactly the opposite decision - to avoid being part of a fixed couple (Except learning to follow, if I can't be bothered with the drama).
Having tried out the fixed partner thing at Bliss, I'm feeling that I learn better in the rotation. Being with a fixed partner is good for apparent progress (IE, being able to do the routine by the end of the class) but I felt like I was missing out on the deeper knowledge that comes from dancing with many different women, who each mess things up in new and exciting ways.

[David Bailey]

I've seen people who have been doing Ceroc for 6 weeks attending every week who aren't ready for them either.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that most people shouldn't move up to intermediates after 6 weeks. I reckon 3 - 6 months is far more sensible, and even then I'd expect the new beginner to continue doing beginner classes as well, for a long time - a year wouldn't be unreasonable.

As for teacher assessments:

Well in larger events because they probably don't have the time. If 100 people came to ask them if they'd be ok, even if the teacher spent 1 minute with each they are doing an hour and a half pre-class assessment for an hour class.

In Finchley, you get maybe a half-dozen people ask this over the evening, so it's not unmanageable - and the teacher states quite clearly, several times in the class, that anyone having problems with the routine should ask her after the class.

(I didn't dare )

Of course, this re-raises the issue of how much a teacher is "on duty" after the class, but I think most people would say that working-the-room activities is good practice.

[David Bailey]

Personally I think they could drop the descriptions of teachers and include that info (and more) in the descriptions of classes - particularly for those teachers only teaching one class.

What, remove all those biographies? But how could we ever survive a weekender without knowing what schools they went to and the names of their first pet gerbils?

Seriously, I'd definitely like to see a description of what is meant (in a weekender) by beginners, intermediate and advanced levels - in terms of the expectations therein.

Having said that, I don't think it's easy to do much beyond a beginner-level in a weekender, for any dance, simply because of the numbers involved. Some dance forms (e.g AT) just aren't suited to the "large room, 200 students and teacher with microphone" MJ format.

(Talking about fixed partners...)

Based on my experience, and on the discussion going on here, at a typical large weekender, I don't think I'll ever do a class at one of these events again unless I'm with a fixed partner, or I really, really want to do the class.

A bit extreme I think?
Weekenders do offer a lot of variety of dance forms, so you have opportunities to try different dances at a taster level.

dancing with many different women, who each mess things up in new and exciting ways.

Dead man walking...

[TiggsTours]

Really? I rather thought that we were all talking about a class that took place at the recent Bliss event here. Sorry. My mistake. Though, I will agree that I think maybe a little more description of the classes would help - especially if the title of the class isn't very descriptive....

Minnie's first thread read to me as a general query, based on one class, and didn't actually mention where the class took place, having not been there, I wouldn't have known.

You never mentioned that. I was talking about both large events and small. The smaller events do mean, generally, that you can have more direct interaction with the teacher.

But I did say:

Of course, this works well with the smaller classes that lindy usually has, or at weekenders, it may not work quite so well in a weekly ceroc class, with the number of people.

I may not have said "smaller weekenders" but I think my subsequent comments about it not working with large classes would have indicated what I meant.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that most people shouldn't move up to intermediates after 6 weeks. I reckon 3 - 6 months is far more sensible, and even then I'd expect the new beginner to continue doing beginner classes as well, for a long time - a year wouldn't be unreasonable.

[killingtime]

I may not have said "smaller weekenders" but I think my subsequent comments about it not working with large classes would have indicated what I meant.

Meh. That's what I get for skim reading .

[Frankie_4711]

... but I felt like I was missing out on the deeper knowledge that comes from dancing with many different women, who each mess things up in new and exciting ways.

What a fantastic way of putting it! Love it!

[Princess Fi]

The fixed partner debate for me entirely depends upon the size of the class you are talking about.

When I was at the BFG (my first weekender ) I almost never had a fixed partner, and I think I gained a lot in terms of my dancing because of this rotation. But the classes there were a manageable size.

When I went to Southport by comparison, almost all the classes I went to were crammed to over capacity. It could have been that I just wasn't 'getting' the dances. It could have been that I just wasn't clicking with those partners. (It could have also been that with the exception of one teacher, almost all of them taught from a stage where you couldn't see them or the steps they were performing ) Either way, I didn't get particuarly much from these classes where I was rotating with the other girlies.

When I was with a fixed partner though I found it much easier (for more reasons I think than just being able to plank yourself in a position where you could see), so personally for me, I think I may end up staying with a fixed partner for really large workshops out of necessity.

Either that or just sleep through the workshops then stay out all night at the freestyle

[TheTramp]

Either that or just sleep through the workshops then stay out all night at the freestyle

Sounds like a plan to me!!

[Minnie M]

Minnie's first thread read to me as a general query, based on one class, and didn't actually mention where the class took place, having not been there, I wouldn't have known.

I was referring to a class at Bliss, however it could be a general question

In some weekenders, you need to audition for advance classes - which personally I think is a good idea