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Thread: Class Levels

  1. #1
    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Class Levels

    This weekend I watched a class taken by Simon Boreland..... thought it was really good - clear and precise, the moves were demonstrated many times from different angles - could not fault it. When finished the moves flowed really well together, I was thoroughly impressed.

    However, I was amazed that no-one in the class was able to produce this superb routine

    I mentioned this to Simon after the class and he replied that is was an advance routine and advertised as an advance class. From what I could see from the dancers I would not have thought there was an advance dancer between them So why (as a beginner/intermediate) should you want attend an advance class it would only confuse you surely ?


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    Re: Class Levels

    Because there are many levels of advanced dancers. And obviously, Simon was aiming it at a higher level of advanced dancer than the people that were there are....

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    Registered User Dizzy's Avatar
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    Re: Class Levels

    I think that because there is no definitive descriptions of what is classified as intermediate or advanced, people can easily interpret this to mean that they can justify going to class and trying it out anyway, whether they learn something or not.

    I have found this especially during the WCS classes on weekenders. People turn to the beginners WCS class for the first time ever and do the class. Then later on that day, with only the beginners class as experience, will turn up to the WCS intermediate and advanced classes and expect to learn something. They go away disappointed because they don't get it and the intermediate and advanced dancers go away disappointed as the teacher has had to adapt the class to fit these beginners in.

    It does not happen in just WCS but other weekender classes too.

  4. #4

    Re: Class Levels

    A couple of times in our intermediate class the instructress has said "This move starts with a ........ and if you don't know what this is, you shouldn't be in this class"

    It sounds a bit brutal perhaps, but she does offer intramediate (a workshop to take you from beginners to intermediate) and extramediate classes (a bit beyond intermediate to help us move up to advanced). We don't have any advanced classes (yet) but she did bring in someone to teach an advanced workshop recently. I think it's awesome that she really tries so hard to cater for so many levels.

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    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: Class Levels

    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzy View Post
    I have found this especially during the WCS classes on weekenders. People turn to the beginners WCS class for the first time ever and do the class. Then later on that day, with only the beginners class as experience, will turn up to the WCS intermediate and advanced classes and expect to learn something. They go away disappointed because they don't get it and the intermediate and advanced dancers go away disappointed as the teacher has had to adapt the class to fit these beginners in.

    It does not happen in just WCS but other weekender classes too.
    Yes - eg from a post I made earlier tonight
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    I remember someone at Southport complaining about a Tango class being too difficult - it was listed as 'int'. He had already done the 'beginner' one and thought that the 'int' should be a progression from that. I tried to explain that you didn't go from beginner to intermediate in Tango in one class (more like a year!) but he just shouted at me.
    For MJ classes, as people move from beginner to intermediate after an average of 6-10 weeks, they might then think if they have been dancing for a few years they have reached 'advanced' level but without developing the skills they need to deal with the 'advanced' class. Or they might decide to try it and when they struggle with the first move of the routine, think they'll get the second move...

    Its not a good situation though - the people they dance with in the rotation who are at the right level for the class (whatever that level is) get frustrated and the ones really struggling with the moves must go away feeling discouraged.

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    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Class Levels

    OK, how long before DJ comes by and starts talking about coloured cards?

    Seriously – if teachers and organisers are serious about addressing this problem (and I'm not sure they are) then there needs to be a way to help guide dancers to classes appropriate for their skill and experience.

    Can anybody suggest one that doesn't alienate, ostracise, or divide?
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Registered User NZ Monkey's Avatar
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    Re: Class Levels

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    However, I was amazed that no-one in the class was able to produce this superb routine
    Hey, *I* was in that class and I thought I had it

    Seriously, it was advertised as an advanced class, but by an Australian who is used to having very definite guidelines over what makes an ''advanced dancer''. They do use cards or similar strategies to gauge progress and ability there so it is much easier to cater to the ability of the students when visiting other venues. Simon and Nicole both made it pretty clear what level the students had to be at for their classes at the very beginning as well, but they're obviously used to the way it's done in the UK.

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi
    if teachers and organisers are serious about addressing this problem (and I'm not sure they are) then there needs to be a way to help guide dancers to classes appropriate for their skill and experience.

    Can anybody suggest one that doesn't alienate, ostracise, or divide?
    I don't really think there is one. The problem isn't so much the system of using cards than they way people interpret them as something to cause division or alienation. I learned under a similar system and it just wasn't an issue. I think it's a good idea personally. I also think a lot of people just don't want to take the ego hit they'll get if they (or their teachers) can't class themselves as ''advanced''.

    To be honest it'd be a nightmare trying to start any classification like that in the UK even if the powers that be decide it would be a good idea. As much as I like the card system I can't see it working well here after so many years without one. Remember there is a difference between being able to perform technically diffificult moves and other things that could be considered advanced though (like strong musicality for instance).

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn
    Its not a good situation though - the people they dance with in the rotation who are at the right level for the class (whatever that level is) get frustrated and the ones really struggling with the moves must go away feeling discouraged.
    :Yeahthat:
    Last edited by NZ Monkey; 3rd-October-2006 at 02:06 PM.

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    Re: Class Levels

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    Seriously, it was advertised as an advanced class, but by an Australian who is used to having very definite guidelines over what makes an ''advanced dancer''. They do use cards or similar strategies to gauge progress and ability there so it is much easier to cater to the ability of the students when visiting other venues. Simon and Nicole both made it pretty clear what level the students had to be at for their classes at the very beginning as well, but they're obviously used to the way it's done in the UK.
    True. But Simon has been teaching over here for a good couple of years now, and at a wide variety of events, not just weekly classes (which I gather that he does quite a lot of).

    Having said that, I'm not trying to say that he was wrong to teach what he did. Just that he should be used to the system and the way it's done in the UK by now too.

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    Re: Class Levels

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    For MJ classes, as people move from beginner to intermediate after an average of 6-10 weeks, they might then think if they have been dancing for a few years they have reached 'advanced' level but without developing the skills they need to deal with the 'advanced' class. Or they might decide to try it and when they struggle with the first move of the routine, think they'll get the second move...
    I think that part of the problem is the "6 lessons and you're an intermediate" mentality. How many weeks as an intermediate before you're advanced? The problem is that many of these people think that 6 months MJ will make you advanced. IMHO being able to dance well makes you advanced. It doesn't matter how long you've been dancing, you've just got to be good to be advanced.

    But who says you're good and who says you're advanced and ready to do an advanced lesson? This is difficult at a weekender where you don't know the dancers. At your own classes it's easier, you know the dancers and you know how good they are. You can say "you'll be ready for this workshop the next time we run it but you'll find it difficult this time as we'll be moving a bit fast for you at your stage of dancing". I find that saying we'll be moving to quickly rather than you're not good enough is far more acceptable.

    The solution for advanced classes at weekenders? Don't do them or make them fixed couples - then the true advanced dancers will not be stuck with a succession of advanced wannabees pulling their arms out of their sockets

  10. #10
    Registered User killingtime's Avatar
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    Re: Class Levels

    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzy View Post
    I have found this especially during the WCS classes on weekenders. People turn to the beginners WCS class for the first time ever and do the class. Then later on that day, with only the beginners class as experience, will turn up to the WCS intermediate and advanced classes and expect to learn something. They go away disappointed because they don't get it and the intermediate and advanced dancers go away disappointed as the teacher has had to adapt the class to fit these beginners in.
    That's a problem. The teacher either simplifies the routine so the beginners get it (resulting in the people who came along who were the correct level to leave disappointed) or they continue teaching at the level they were expecting and you'll probably have a lot of frustrated people (including the partners of people who are at the wrong level).

    The importance of this varies. For example a fixed partner couple might just go along and try a class out of their level but mention to the teacher to just carry on if they aren't getting it. At Franck's connection class (which was advanced at the BFG) being at the wrong level might annoy your partner but I expect Franck could have ignored you and carried on teaching at the level he was expecting. At an dips and drops class you might well injure someone and suddenly it becomes more important that you are at the right level.

    Still these examples also highlight the fact that an advanced class might be advanced for different reasons. Dips and Drops aren't really that complex moves but they do require quite a lot of physical exertion. A connections class might require little physical exertion but a good understanding of many of the fundamentals of a dance.

  11. #11
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    Re: Class Levels

    Taken from the London Balboa Festival site about which level are you?

    OK this is a bit long winded but I was able to figure out pretty quickly which level of workshop I should attend (as it happens I'm not going though). But something similar could prove useful

    1 You have never done any Balboa before, or you have only taken the occasional taster and do not feel confident to social dance Balboa.

    2 Leaders: You have done some classes in Balboa, but find that you are limited in your social dancing to just the simplest basic steps and tend only to incorporate Balboa into your lindy hop for short phrases at a time. Followers: You have done some classes in Balboa, but find that you struggle to get through a tune with someone who is doing more than just the basics. Both: You would prefer to spend the weekend learning a repertoire of the classic balboa moves, in order that you can dance balboa throughout a whole song.

    3 You have taken several workshops, and you are just starting to become comfortable social dancing whole songs of balboa. You feel you do not have a complete basic repertoire of Balboa, but you have enough to dance to a whole song. You still need to work on some of the classic balboa repertoire, but would like to start learning more challenging patterns.

    4 You take classes whenever you can, but they are not on a regular basis. Leaders: You are comfortable social dancing entire tunes of Balboa and have a variety of moves. Followers: You are comfortable social dancing entire tunes of Balboa, and with leaders that are really good you can be thrown into some fancy things. Both: You have worked on all the standard basics (Lollies, Transition Step, Cross Overs, Throw Out (Spike), Paddle, and Crab Walk) but do not always execute all of them well. Your pure balboa is particularly limited. You would like some revision of these moves in order to improve them, but would also like to expand your variety of moves.


    5,6,7,8,9 get progressively more complex so I've left them out

    10 You are at the professional level of Balboa, and are one of the best Bal Dancers in the World. You have developed a style of Balboa that is unique. You incorporate your own foot variations and slides, and can create your own moves. You are interested in getting to know the style of each teacher so that you can further refine your own style and get new ideas as a platform of your own creativity.
    So once you establish your level you attend workshops aimed at level minimum of X - provided X is <= your level
    Last edited by clevedonboy; 3rd-October-2006 at 02:56 PM.

  12. #12
    TiggsTours
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    Re: Class Levels

    Quote Originally Posted by Green-eyed Monsta View Post
    A couple of times in our intermediate class the instructress has said "This move starts with a ........ and if you don't know what this is, you shouldn't be in this class"

    It sounds a bit brutal perhaps........
    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I think that part of the problem is the "6 lessons and you're an intermediate" mentality. How many weeks as an intermediate before you're advanced? The problem is that many of these people think that 6 months MJ will make you advanced. IMHO being able to dance well makes you advanced. It doesn't matter how long you've been dancing, you've just got to be good to be advanced.

    But who says you're good and who says you're advanced and ready to do an advanced lesson? This is difficult at a weekender where you don't know the dancers. At your own classes it's easier, you know the dancers and you know how good they are. You can say "you'll be ready for this workshop the next time we run it but you'll find it difficult this time as we'll be moving a bit fast for you at your stage of dancing". I find that saying we'll be moving to quickly rather than you're not good enough is far more acceptable.



    Sorry to bang on about it, but this is something that is handled really well in Lindy. All groups will have their own "rules" for which class you fit into, for example:

    "Complete Beginners: for those with absolutely no Lindy Hop experience, up to those with around 6 months
    Improvers: for those with between 3 months and a year and a half of experience
    Intermediate+: for those with more than a year of Lindy Hop experience
    Your Lindy Hop experience is how long you have continuously attended a regular weekly Lindy Hop class). Many people will find that 2 of the classes are suitable for their level of Lindy Hop. If in doubt about which class(es) to attend, just ask the teacher on the night."

    You can usually ask the teacher to dance with you, and they will assess which class you should fit into.

    You will also be told quite often at the beginning of any class other than beginners, "In order to do this class, you need to be able to do......." and then a minute of freestyle music will be played, in which the teacher will watch the class to see who can and can't do the moves to an acceptable standard, will try dancing with you to see what isn't working and point you in the right direction, and will hapily suggest that you maybe sit that class out if you're not really ready for that level of class.

    In lindy, this is the accepted way, so nobody gets put out by it, and nobody suffers. Intermediate and Advanced dancers have paid for their class too, and deserve to be in a class that is right for their level, nobody would expect the beginners class to be comprimised for the sake of the advanced dancers taking part, why should it be considered OK the other way round?

    Of course, this works well with the smaller classes that lindy usually has, or at weekenders, it may not work quite so well in a weekly ceroc class, with the number of people. I do think that teachers and taxi dancers should be able to assess if someone is ready to step up to the next level though.

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    Re: Class Levels

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    I was amazed that no-one in the class was able to produce this superb routine
    In more advanced classes, I think you have to expect that not everyone will be able to learn everything taught in the 60 minutes available. For example, I once did a workshop on "spinning and style". I learnt a lot. However, I couldn't do a double spin before the class, and I couldn't do a double spin after the class. That doesn't mean that I was in the wrong class.

    I prefer weekenders that give a little more guidance as to what the different levels mean (cf examples given above). Obviously this can never be perfect, due to natural aptitude, prior experience, dedication, etc. However, I feel that it's better than nothing. Some weekenders also ask dancers (in the general guidance blurb) not to join classes they find uncomfortably difficult.

    I went to one weekender that charged less for a beginner ticket, which only gave access to beginner-level classes. Then the intermediate ticket was more pricey, and gave access to both beginner-level classes and intermediate-level classes. Finally, the advanced ticket was most expensive and gave access to all classes.

  14. #14
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    Re: Class Levels

    Did they charge less for no classes at all? Sounds like a good plan to me!

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    Registered User killingtime's Avatar
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    Re: Class Levels

    Quote Originally Posted by TiggsTours View Post
    Sorry to bang on about it, but this is something that is handled really well in Lindy. All groups will have their own "rules" for which class you fit into, for example:

    "Complete Beginners: for those with absolutely no Lindy Hop experience, up to those with around 6 months
    Improvers: for those with between 3 months and a year and a half of experience
    Intermediate+: for those with more than a year of Lindy Hop experience
    Well we have that at Ceroc as well. You should have been dancing 6/12 weeks before trying an Intermediate class. Does that mean that you are Intermediate at 12 weeks? I've heard it mention that you should have 1 year's experience to attend an Advanced workshop. It doesn't mean that everyone dancing for 12 weeks is at the same level. Time spent learning is only really a guide.

    Quote Originally Posted by TiggsTours View Post
    You can usually ask the teacher to dance with you, and they will assess which class you should fit into.
    You probably can't do this at most weekenders. I expect you can at smaller classes though or if you were booking up for a local workshop (for local people ).

    Quote Originally Posted by TiggsTours View Post
    You will also be told quite often at the beginning of any class other than beginners, "In order to do this class, you need to be able to do......."
    That makes sense, it at least gives an idea of what you should know before entering a class.

    Quote Originally Posted by TiggsTours View Post
    nobody would expect the beginners class to be comprimised for the sake of the advanced dancers taking part, why should it be considered OK the other way round?
    Though we do compromise Intermediate classes between the high level Intermediate dancer wanting to know something a bit more complex (maybe) and your Improver/Intermediate wanting an easier transition from beginner. I guess that's something to do with the large spectrum that Intermediate covers though.

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    Re: Class Levels

    Hmmm. Thinking about it, my thoughts are that I would have no problem with people doing any class at all at a weekend event. It would be impossible to stop them anyhow, so there's not really a lot of point in moaning about it. It's only 50 minutes, and you can't really get through a lot in that time. Even dancing with someone who shouldn't really be in the class, you can pick up ideas, and technique which you can then practice later on with someone else who can achieve the required level.

    If it is causing you that much problem, then arrange to do the class as a fixed couple with someone at your own level, since you know it's not going to be to your liking before you even go in there.

    For smaller classes/workshops either longer in time, or run on a regular basis, then I would say that it matters much more, and maybe it's up to the teacher to 'police' it.

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    Re: Class Levels

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    Did they charge less for no classes at all? Sounds like a good plan to me!
    Yes, there was an evening-only ticket available.

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    Re: Class Levels

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    Hmmm. Thinking about it, my thoughts are that I would have no problem with people doing any class at all at a weekend event. It would be impossible to stop them anyhow, so there's not really a lot of point in moaning about it. It's only 50 minutes, and you can't really get through a lot in that time. Even dancing with someone who shouldn't really be in the class, you can pick up ideas, and technique which you can then practice later on with someone else who can achieve the required level.

    If it is causing you that much problem, then arrange to do the class as a fixed couple with someone at your own level, since you know it's not going to be to your liking before you even go in there.
    How much more can you cover in a 50 minute period if your class is at the right level for the material?

    I agree about the fixed partner thing, but life being what it is it isn’t always possible to have one. It isn’t people who aren’t quite up to a class like that who bug me – it’s the fact that if they’re in the rotation they slow down everyone who should be. A teacher can ignore fixed partners who clearly are not up to the material, but they can’t do that with the rotation so easily. At least they can’t if there are lots of people who shouldn’t be there in it.

    The more advanced dancers paid the same amount as the less advanced one. If specifically ‘’advanced’’ classes are going to be run for them then doesn’t it stand to reason that you give them the best value you can? An advanced dancer in a beginners class isn’t going to cause problems, but a beginner in an advanced class will. It’s worse than not having the beginner there at all (and having to wait out) since their partner will have concentrate on preventing them from hurting themselves a lot of the time, rather than on what they’re supposed to be doing.

  19. #19
    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: Class Levels

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey
    Simon and Nicole both made it pretty clear what level the students had to be at for their classes at the very beginning as well, but they're obviously used to the way it's done in the UK.
    It wasn't Simon & Nicole, wrong class - it was Simon & Sue

    Some of the students in the class I was talking about 'nearly' got it, but I really didn't see any doing the whole routine properly (I am sure you were not in that class Shannon I would have recognised you and you are a very good dancer and certainly competent to do an advance class!!)


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    That date is recognized as her official birthday.

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    Re: Class Levels

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    How much more can you cover in a 50 minute period if your class is at the right level for the material?
    In a class the size of most of the ones at weekenders, probably not much more. And lets face it, that's what it's like at those events. I'd never go to a weekender of that sort of size to really learn something. Maybe go expecting to pick up a few things, but really expecting to learn, no.

    Of course, there is a proviso that after the first 2 weekenders I went to, I stopped doing the classes at all (unless asked to partner someone), and went purely for the 9 hours freestyle in the nights, with music that I didn't expect to get at my regular classes.

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