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Thread: Crossing the Beginner to Intermediate divide

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    Registered User TurboTomato's Avatar
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    Crossing the Beginner to Intermediate divide

    Hi all,

    I won't be surprised if this has been asked before so apologies if it has, but here goes...

    I've been dancing for about 4 months now and made the switch to the intermediate class about 5 weeks ago. Now the way the beginners moves are taught (beginners class at 8, short freestyle and then off with the taxi dancers to go through the moves again) seems to work well with me - doing lots and often drums it in and things started to come more naturally and I could concentrate on doing stuff like actually moving to the beat! Now I am far more confident, and I can dance freestyle (ie not just doing the 4 beginners moves in a constant cycle) and I try to vary my moves and put most of the beginners ones into a rountine (so long as I don't get stuck in a first move into a first move etc which seems to be the bane of me if I'm not concentrating ).

    I really struggled with the inters class to begin with - the fact that moves don't get repeated week-on-week, no extra class with taxi dancers as the beginners have, compounded with the fact that the moves themselves are obviously a lot harder makes it a lot tougher. Recently (say the last 2 weeks) I have found the inter moves a little easier, so I think just learning any inter move can help you pick up another inter move more quickly (I try to break it down into bits of beginners moves I know - so this is a bit like a basket etc but with a blah blah) if you see what I mean. After the inter class has finished I'll usually take one of my regular partners and we'll go through the moves until I know what I'm doing, but rather like when I was a beginner, I will be concentrating on doing the moves rather than listening to the music and therefore actually dancing

    So I guess my question is (along with my observations!) - I would like to be able to drop one or two intermediate moves into my routines so what are some nice simple ones I can do? And to the more experienced dancers - am I going about this in the right way or am I learning to run before I can walk? As I've read on here a lot, I'd much rather be one of the dancers that can do most of the simple moves well rather than a whole reportoire of bad intermediates

    Thanks in advance

    Paul

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    Re: Crossing the Beginner to Intermediate divide

    I think that most people struggle at first when they make the step up to intermediate.

    The best advice I can offer, is not to true to remember the whole intermediate routine, but pick the move that you like the most, and concentrate on that. Try and get it in a couple of times every dance that evening, and soon it'll become second nature - it's all about muscle memory.

    As you rightly say, it's not about doing hundreds of moves badly, but doing the ones you do well. Give yourself a little time. In a few months, you'll have a pretty reasonable repertoire under your belt, just from your one move a class. And it won't take long before it all starts to be easier anyway...

    There might also be a 'classic intermediate moves' workshop, which takes the more popular and easier intermediate moves, and teaches some of them in one session. Least, we have them in Scotland

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    Re: Crossing the Beginner to Intermediate divide

    There is supposed to one "Classic" move incorporated into each intermediate lesson. These are "useful" moves, and, as there are a limited number of them, they do get repeated more often.
    The other tip is to watch other dancers. Pick the moves that you like the look of. If you cannot pick them up by watching, or if it might be dangerous to try, then pay particular attention to those when they come up in the intermediate.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Crossing the Beginner to Intermediate divide

    Quote Originally Posted by TurboTomato View Post
    So I guess my question is (along with my observations!) - I would like to be able to drop one or two intermediate moves into my routines so what are some nice simple ones I can do?
    Travelling return? For some of my dances, I reckon about half the moves are travelling returns. Actually, I dunno if that's good or not, thinking about it

    The sway's a nice move too - like the travelling return, it's nice and simple, but it allows a lot of variations in terms of things like timing.

    The forward-and-back (Manhatten? I'm truly useless at move names) mambo-like move is nice too.

    Quote Originally Posted by TurboTomato View Post
    And to the more experienced dancers - am I going about this in the right way or am I learning to run before I can walk?
    Sounds fine to me.

    I was going to put in some clever comment about Tango and walking here, but I ran out of inspiration, so just assume it please.

  5. #5
    TiggsTours
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    Re: Crossing the Beginner to Intermediate divide

    Well, there's a few bits of advice I'd give to anyone moving up to intermediates, so I've aimed my response at anyone who may be thinking of taking the plunge, not just answering your question.

    1. Its really important to be confident with the beginners moves, and not to run before you can walk. The beginner moves will contain all the technique that you need to know in order to transfer those skills to the intermediate moves.
    2. As a leader, as well as practising the moves after with a partner (which isn't a bad thing at all) why not write them down? I know alot of leaders really benefit from doing this.
    3. As Trampy said, don't try to learn the routine, if you can take away one move from an intermediate class and use it in your repertoire, then the class has done what it set out to acheive.
    4. Don't think that just because you're now intermediate you can't ask the taxi dancers for help anymore, they will be more than willing to help out. Only, please remember, the taxi dancer probably wasn't in the class, probably didn't even see it, so they may not know what you're trying to do. However, they will probably work it out if you try to go through it with them, and point out where things may be going wrong.
    5. Relax! Try to remember how hard it was when you first started, and didn't think you'd ever get the hang of one of those first move thingys! The step to intermediates is a big one, and many experienced dancers only really learn one move in a class.

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    Re: Crossing the Beginner to Intermediate divide

    Quote Originally Posted by TurboTomato View Post
    And to the more experienced dancers - am I going about this in the right way or am I learning to run before I can walk? As I've read on here a lot, I'd much rather be one of the dancers that can do most of the simple moves well rather than a whole reportoire of bad intermediates
    I think you are going about it in a very sensible way indeed. The transition between beginner and intermediate can be extremely tough for leaders. Followers have their own problems but leaders have the twin tasks of moving themselves AND leading the other person in the partnership.

    I think that by concentrating on a limited number of moves and doing them well will be short on instant gratification but will pay dividends.

    A few tips.

    Find the follower in the room that is so good that she scares other dancers and find a time where she is obviously sitting a track out and ask her if she will explain to you, when she feels she has time, how to do one simple beginner move, but do it really well. I have gained huge insights into my errors by finding out what a good follower expects of me. In particular don't bounce your hands in time with the music.

    Do the beginners class and revision class as a follower. Being able to feel what a follower feels, what is helpful and what is bad shows you how you might alter your own lead for the better. It feels weird but it pays off

    Book yourself on a weekender. They are great fun and something wonderful happens to your dancing just by being immersed in it for a few days.


    The hard thing for leaders in your position is boredom. You have done your group of known moves over and over again and quite frankly you bore yourself. So leaders have this huge hunger for moves. It is a tough time and only perserverance and an ability to take the long view that gets you through.

    Good luck. I hope it all comes together for you.

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    Re: Crossing the Beginner to Intermediate divide

    Trampy's advice about cherry-picking from the intermediate class is good. For a long time, after the end of the Int class I would just "memory dump" all but one of the moves, and try to use that one at least once per dance for the rest of the evening.
    "Classic" moves reappear in Intermediate routines less frequently than things do in the Beginner's class - more moves so less rotation of them. It's important, therefore, to practice them when they appear: chances are it'll be months before you see it taught again.
    Quote Originally Posted by TiggsTours View Post
    Its really important to be confident with the beginners moves, and not to run before you can walk. The beginner moves will contain all the technique that you need to know in order to transfer those skills to the intermediate moves.
    One idea which I'd not thought of before is making the "switch" gradually - why not alternate between the beginner's refresher class and the Intermediate class for a few weeks?
    Quote Originally Posted by TiggsTours View Post
    Don't think that just because you're now intermediate you can't ask the taxi dancers for help anymore, they will be more than willing to help out. Only, please remember, the taxi dancer probably wasn't in the class, probably didn't even see it, so they may not know what you're trying to do. However, they will probably work it out if you try to go through it with them, and point out where things may be going wrong.
    I've always felt there's a case for a "spare" taxi who takes part in the Intermediate class, rather than do the refresher class. It's a bit frustrating when someone comes up to me and asks about something from the Intermediate class, and I've little idea what they were meant to be doing. More importantly, it must heighten the "once you start Intermediate, you're on your own" feeling for beginners.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Crossing the Beginner to Intermediate divide

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart M View Post
    Trampy's advice about cherry-picking from the intermediate class is good. For a long time, after the end of the Int class I would just "memory dump" all but one of the moves, and try to use that one at least once per dance for the rest of the evening.
    I spent a long time as a beginner (over a year) faithfully writing down each move after each class - lots of leaders did / do.

    Now we have this newfangled Interweb thingy, that's probably not so important, as most moves are described on line (e.g. in the jiveoholic site). But some written aides-memoire might be useful.

  9. #9
    TiggsTours
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    Re: Crossing the Beginner to Intermediate divide

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart M View Post
    I've always felt there's a case for a "spare" taxi who takes part in the Intermediate class, rather than do the refresher class. It's a bit frustrating when someone comes up to me and asks about something from the Intermediate class, and I've little idea what they were meant to be doing. More importantly, it must heighten the "once you start Intermediate, you're on your own" feeling for beginners.
    Absolutely agree, but that does really mean having 8 taxi dancers per venue, one leader and one follower per class, and working alternate weeks. I guess you could do it with 6, so you have 1 week in every 3 off, 1 week beginner review, 1 week intermediate, 1 week off. I think most venues would love to have this luxury, but taxi dancers are hard to come by, good taxi dancers are even harder!

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    Re: Crossing the Beginner to Intermediate divide

    Quote Originally Posted by TiggsTours View Post
    Absolutely agree, but that does really mean having 8 taxi dancers per venue, one leader and one follower per class, and working alternate weeks. I guess you could do it with 6, so you have 1 week in every 3 off, 1 week beginner review, 1 week intermediate, 1 week off. I think most venues would love to have this luxury, but taxi dancers are hard to come by, good taxi dancers are even harder!
    Well, I think you'd only need one per evening, so that's 6 overall if you just have one male/female taxi normally. There were venues in Scotland where having 3 taxis on duty wasn't unusual, and some refresher classes are probably small enough to be taken by just one taxi anyway (rarely the case at my local, admittedly).

    Additional side-effects of such a system - there's another opportunity to iron out basic errors. The current structure still lets too many dancers with basic flaws through (a recent Recent thread about grippers suggest this, at least), since the step up is a personal choice. And, of course, it means one more dancer in the Int class who knows what they are doing

    Of course, ATEOTD it's cost/benefit analysis: losing revenue from one dancer, versus improved general dance level, and potential increase in workshop attendance. Unfortunately these are both fairly intangible.

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    Registered User TurboTomato's Avatar
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    Re: Crossing the Beginner to Intermediate divide

    Wow, this place really is a mine of information!

    I like the idea of taking one move from the intermediate class and just focusing on that - I'd not thought of doing that and it makes sense. More travelling returns is good as well as I can just put some of them in instead of a normal return with a beginners move.

    Thanks all

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    Registered User TurboTomato's Avatar
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    Re: Crossing the Beginner to Intermediate divide

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef View Post
    Book yourself on a weekender. They are great fun and something wonderful happens to your dancing just by being immersed in it for a few days.
    I'm booked in to Storm at Camber next March

    Chef, you must be pretty local to me - have you ever tried either of the Tunbridge Wells venues?

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    Registered User TurboTomato's Avatar
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    Re: Crossing the Beginner to Intermediate divide

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart M View Post
    I've always felt there's a case for a "spare" taxi who takes part in the Intermediate class, rather than do the refresher class. It's a bit frustrating when someone comes up to me and asks about something from the Intermediate class, and I've little idea what they were meant to be doing. More importantly, it must heighten the "once you start Intermediate, you're on your own" feeling for beginners.
    Couldn't agree more - sometimes this happens if one of the regular taxis is not dancing as a taxi on that particular night, but it would make sense to have a pair in the intermediate class as well. It would certainly make the transition easier.

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    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: Crossing the Beginner to Intermediate divide

    Quote Originally Posted by TiggsTours View Post
    Don't think that just because you're now intermediate you can't ask the taxi dancers for help anymore, they will be more than willing to help out. Only, please remember, the taxi dancer probably wasn't in the class, probably didn't even see it, so they may not know what you're trying to do. However, they will probably work it out if you try to go through it with them, and point out where things may be going wrong.
    This week I danced (after I went off duty) with a leader who is just starting to put the odd intermediate move into his dancing. I had been taking the revision class so I didn't know the intermediate moves. He tried one out, after I'd followed it I pointed out that I wasn't in the class but had still been able to follow his lead - which was encouraging for him. But likewise it would have shown up any problems and we could have worked on that.

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    Re: Crossing the Beginner to Intermediate divide

    not 5 seconds after finishing the Intermediate class all the moves are out of my head. All I can do is my basic beginner moves again.

    so If I can't remember them 5 mins after the class then there's no hope for me remembering them the next day or the next week.

    I'm thinking about going back to beginner.. at least if I can't pick up some new moves I'll learn to do the ones I know better.

    I lack the dancing gene.. I got an extra helping of the geeky nerdy schmuck gene instead.

    I suffer from a rare case of Sinistralitis Duplo-Orthopaedic Inversionitis.. That is I have two left feet that think they're both right's.

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    Re: Crossing the Beginner to Intermediate divide

    One thing I found wasn't very clearly explained is that it's perfectly valid to use bits and pieces of different moves (either intentionally, or to get yourself out of something you wern't expecting to happen). This, I think, is the main reason why doing lots of different moves without much structrure from week to week still helps. You're learning by experience how the lead-follow works, rather than particularly learning moves.

    Sean

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    Re: Crossing the Beginner to Intermediate divide

    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf1970 View Post
    not 5 seconds after finishing the Intermediate class all the moves are out of my head. All I can do is my basic beginner moves again.
    Does it help if you try and run through the whole routine? I (still) find this much easier than remembering a specific move. It does rely on being able to get most of the way through the routine though, maybe missing out the semi-obligatory pointless armtwister move which never quite worked in the class.

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    Re: Crossing the Beginner to Intermediate divide

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart M View Post
    I've always felt there's a case for a "spare" taxi who takes part in the Intermediate class, rather than do the refresher class. It's a bit frustrating when someone comes up to me and asks about something from the Intermediate class, and I've little idea what they were meant to be doing. More importantly, it must heighten the "once you start Intermediate, you're on your own" feeling for beginners.
    Alternatively, even having the teacher spend 3 minutes with the Taxis before the start showing them what he's going to teach in the Intermediate class would make quite a difference. Failing that, you can always ask one of the more reliable intermediates: "can you show me what happened in the intermediate class in case anyone needs help with it?". I used to do this quite often for my wife when she taxied at Jive Bar.

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    Re: Crossing the Beginner to Intermediate divide

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart M View Post
    I've always felt there's a case for a "spare" taxi who takes part in the Intermediate class, rather than do the refresher class. It's a bit frustrating when someone comes up to me and asks about something from the Intermediate class, and I've little idea what they were meant to be doing. More importantly, it must heighten the "once you start Intermediate, you're on your own" feeling for beginners.
    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Alternatively, even having the teacher spend 3 minutes with the Taxis before the start showing them what he's going to teach in the Intermediate class would make quite a difference. Failing that, you can always ask one of the more reliable intermediates: "can you show me what happened in the intermediate class in case anyone needs help with it?". I used to do this quite often for my wife when she taxied at Jive Bar.
    Ummmm. What's wrong with actually asking the teacher? And for the taxi-dancers to refer questions about the intermediate class to the teacher. I'm sure that most of those wouldn't mind helping out anyone who asks....

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    Re: Crossing the Beginner to Intermediate divide

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef View Post

    Book yourself on a weekender. They are great fun and something wonderful happens to your dancing just by being immersed in it for a few days.





    and sometimes something wonderful happens with you life and its changed forever

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