Ouch, that's my hand!

[Jazz_Shoes (Ash)]

When dancing as a lead in the beginners class, recently i've noticed a couple of hand clutchers, or finger grabbers, or whatever you want to call them. You know when the ladies grip onto your hand so tight you can barely turn them properly or let go of their hand to push spin them?
Now, please don't think I am being insensitive, as it's not true, everyone has their own problems when they start out. But if I can't lead them properly then how are they going to properly learn, or moreso, how are the beginner men that they dance with going to?
Leave it to the taxi's perhaps? Well, thought i'd put my views out there anyway.

Lots of love to all my forum friends
xx

[jive_me]

If they're new or asking for advice I'll gently suggest relaxing and not gripping. While dancing I pull back so that I'm leading only by my fingertips...hopefully at that point there won't be a chance for them to grab. Or...keep changing hands so that they get the message that they can't grip.

xXx

[El Salsero Gringo]

My experience with new dancers is they think they're *supposed* to be holding on with their thumbs. You do actually need to tell them (many times, because it sinks in only slowly) that their partner should never be able to feel their thumb on the back of their hand.

If they're not new, then just ask them - as a special favour to you - not to use their thumbs because you prefer it that way. That way you're not preaching but you achieve the goal you seek.

[Lynn]

My experience with new dancers is they think they're *supposed* to be holding on with their thumbs. You do actually need to tell them (many times, because it sinks in only slowly) that their partner should never be able to feel their thumb on the back of their hand.

This is something that is emphasised from the stage in local classes which makes it much easier for me (whether on taxi duty or not) to 'remind' ladies (or leads) with a smile 'remember, no thumbs required'.

I think it really stems from a fear of breaking contact with their partner, so reassuring them its ok to lose contact and easily picked up again can help, and if they are new, that holding on too tight is a common error (so that they know its not just them).

We had a lead who got round the 'no thumbs' by gripping tightly with his fingers. It was someone I've known for years so I was able to repeatedly remind him not to do that - and he doesn't anymore. Liek ESG says, these things can take time as people aren't aware of how tightly they are holding on, they're thinking about lots of other things. But its a habit that has to be broken as not only does it make dancing more uncomfortable, it can lead to an injury (esp on a turn/return).

[Ghost]

Personally I tend to shift to ballroom frame (buttefly grip I think it's called) and do lots of first moves, manhattens etc and let the taxis sort it out - but the taxis at Bow are pretty good at doing that

Be Well,
Christopher

[Tazmanian Devil]

When dancing as a lead in the beginners class, recently i've noticed a couple of hand clutchers, or finger grabbers, or whatever you want to call them.

I generally tell the ladies that it would be far more comfortable if they were to loosen their grip a bit.
When Taxi-ing I always go through the whole hand grip thing (repeatedly, I am sure when I go to bed the night after taxi-ing I mutter start in nice and close, hands at ladies waist level and no thumbs) I generally also do a demonstration on where I get random lady to grip onto my hand and attempt on turning her then get her to loosen the grip and do it again so as all ladies and gents can see the difference.
I do the same sort of thing with porridge stiring but thats another topic

Personally I tend to shift to ballroom frame (buttefly grip I think it's called) and do lots of first moves, manhattens etc and let the taxis sort it out - but the taxis at Bow are pretty good at doing that

Hey you do that with me Or is that cause we chat while we are dancing

[Ghost]

Hey you do that with me Or is that cause we chat while we are dancing

Or I just really like manhattens......

Anyway what better move for me to be able to see you going ?


Christopher

[Beowulf]

There's a woman at my regular venue.. She's not a beginner by a long chalk. she insists on gripping my hand in a vice like grip and leading as well.

If that wasn't bad enough she gazes around the room chewing her gum with a look of bored indifference on her face. Mind you as she doesn't actually need me to dance as she's covered every base herself then I can't see what she needs to acknowledge my existance

Needless to say she's NOT one of my favourite dancers. An dI know this is petty, but if I get her during the class.. I Deliberately pause and slow moves down and put a lot of tension in my arms so when she tries to fly ahead and lead.. well.. I don't make it easy for her.

I should say something to her.. but she's been going longer than me.. and it's not my style. But yes.. to the original quesiton... I hate grippers

[Andreas]

But yes.. to the original quesiton... I hate grippers

Wouldn't go as far as 'hate' but I certainly dislike dancing with them. Had one of them Friday at Ashton's and the result was that yesterday at Funky Lush I started to get a swollen nuckle at one of my fingers, which I usually use most for leading. Sucks.

[MartinHarper]

You do actually need to tell them (many times, because it sinks in only slowly) that their partner should never be able to feel their thumb on the back of their hand.

Absolutely. Communication beats everything.

The other thing I sometimes do is physically remove their thumb from the back of my hand, and keep doing that until it stays off.

In freestyle I occasionally end up spending a lot of time leading from wrist/back/shoulder.

[Beowulf]

Wouldn't go as far as 'hate' but I certainly dislike dancing with them. .

ok.. I suppose "Hate" is the wrong word. I do strongly dislike grippers and I understand new dancers sometimes don't know better.. and for these I have the patience of a saint. I do my best to tell them about loosening their grip, not anticipating the moves, letting me lead etc.

What I do hate are the dancers who despite me and many others telling them repeatedly all of the above they still insist on leading and gripping. Luckily these dancers are few and far between.. but sadly not non-existent.

[LemonCake]

Now, please don't think I am being insensitive, as it's not true, everyone has their own problems when they start out. But if I can't lead them properly then how are they going to properly learn, or moreso, how are the beginner men that they dance with going to?

I know the problem well. But why are you not saying anything to them in class? When I am in class as a follower, I appreciate any tips from my lead on how to follow to make the experience better. When I am in class as a lead, I take the same responsibility to pass on tips - hopefully with extra value from my experience of following (which not many men have).

Absolutely. Communication beats everything.

The other thing I sometimes do is physically remove their thumb from the back of my hand, and keep doing that until it stays off.

I do that too, every time after the first request. Done with a smile, it is very effective.

[Gadget]

I know the problem well. But why are you not saying anything to them in class?

When? The 5-6-7-8 count in has aready started before the partner reaches you, then the teacher is talking through the move (to talk over them would be rude) then they are demoing it (partner is watching them) and then they are walking it through again, then the gripper is off again to the next victim.... There are some dissadvantages to an efficient teacher

I try to "say" it through my connection, using my first two fingers in sort of the reverse of scissors, forcing my partner's hand open, and/or slipping from the "grip" to only have a 'contact' point somewhere on the hand.

BTW JohnTheHappyGuy raised this issue in the thread Avoiding Pain - I remember giving more detail in there.}

[Stuart M]

When dancing as a lead in the beginners class, recently i've noticed a couple of hand clutchers, or finger grabbers, or whatever you want to call them. You know when the ladies grip onto your hand so tight you can barely turn them properly or let go of their hand to push spin them?

The "no thumbs" thing is pretty much part of our standard talk through at the start of the refresher class, and if any of followers I'm dancing with does it, I'll gently prise their thumb off the back of my hand. Occasionally I'll try to demonstrate how gripping can screw up a move - in future I'll always do that bit, to maybe help make the point hit home. Apologies if we're letting "grippers" slip through.

It is a little difficult to deal with this in a refresher class, without wrecking a newbie's confidence completely. There's an element of "look, you can't even do the basic handhold correctly" which creeps in if the taxi keeps repeating it to a follower. Given that the newbie is trying to learn another 6 things at the same time, and gripping is a nerves issue as much as a technical error (e.g. when concentrating on her feet in a return, the follower may grip again), it's tricky to deal with.

Ash, I'd recommend mentioning it (with a ) to any beginner you dance with in a beginner's class. As to the correct moment to mention it, I'd say it's pretty simple. Immediately following the point where the return/letting go bit has gone t**s up because you can't move your hand freely...

[NZ Monkey]

Had one of them Friday at Ashton's and the result was that yesterday at Funky Lush I started to get a swollen nuckle at one of my fingers, which I usually use most for leading. Sucks.

I remember not that long ago at Fulham almost having my fingers broken not once, but TWICE in a single night by grippers during spins. It was a good three days before I could move one of my fingers through a full range of motion again

As other people have said, I don't mind when beginners get it wrong, as long as they're trying to put it all together. They'll stop doing it eventually and in the meantime we can keep an eye on them to make sure they don't hurt us or anyone else if we can help it (They also tend to spin a lot slower, so you have more time to save yourself if you need to ). Just smile and give them a friendly reminder.

It's the ones who have obviously been around for a while and still do things like that who irritate me. Especially if they just ignore your suggestion and move onto the next poor lead who ends up dancing with a worried look on his face.

Thankfully, most of them are the first kind rather than the second

[Dreadful Scathe]

Especially if they just ignore your suggestion and move onto the next poor lead who ends up dancing with a worried look on his face.

Is "thumbs" a tactic mainly of followers or leads ? I ask because Ive heard it mentioned that some leads are bad for this but I cant think of many followers who try and grip too hard (course that may be down to MY lead, dunno)

[NZ Monkey]

Is "thumbs" a tactic mainly of followers or leads ? I ask because Ive heard it mentioned that some leads are bad for this but I cant think of many followers who try and grip too hard (course that may be down to MY lead, dunno)

Well, all the trouble I’ve ever had has been with followers gripping my fingers and keeping that hold as they spin during a return or something similar. This tends to twist the fingers of the guy, and if they start holding on really tight it can go pretty badly.

It’s not pleasant when a lady grips my hand using her thumb, but I don’t think that kind of grip has the same potential for things to go pear-shaped (since its easier to slip that kind of grip than the one I mentioned earlier) so perhaps I don’t notice it as much.

Purely from the leads perspective here. The leads are probably in a position to make life more difficult by using the thumbs than the followers are

[Twirly]

When? The 5-6-7-8 count in has aready started before the partner reaches you, then the teacher is talking through the move (to talk over them would be rude) then they are demoing it (partner is watching them) and then they are walking it through again, then the gripper is off again to the next victim.... There are some dissadvantages to an efficient teacher

Quite few leads do this – went to a class (not my usual) a while back and every third lead I had to peel their thumb off…

It doesn’t take that long – a quick lifting of the thumb and a “you don’t need that” with a can usually be squeezed in.

Even if you are into the move very quickly, before you’ve realised the problem, you can tell them when you come out – and if they look puzzled, just demo the move again to make the point. And if they look embarrassed, then just shrug, tell them not to worry and say that everyone does it at some point.

As for their concentrating on other things – that’s true. But isn’t this something pretty fundamental? If the new lead (or follow) gets into this habit in the first 2 or 3 classes, it’ll be harder to break (though sadly easier to break your fingers).

[Gav]

When? The 5-6-7-8 count in has aready started before the partner reaches you, then the teacher is talking through the move (to talk over them would be rude) then they are demoing it (partner is watching them) and then they are walking it through again, then the gripper is off again to the next victim.... There are some dissadvantages to an efficient teacher

I have found that just keeping hold of the gripper before they move on and politely explaining it works well. It brings the whole class to a halt 'cos no-one can move around, which tends to get the teacher's attention!

While I'm sure that it's a bit annoying for some people to have the lesson held up an extra 20 seconds, I'm sure that if they knew the reason they'd be OK about it.

I'm fairly new so I don't have the confidence to do this all the time, but for the real beginners if no-one does it, they'll never learn.

[Dynamo]

I have found that just keeping hold of the gripper before they move on and politely explaining it works well. It brings the whole class to a halt ...
....

Hopefully the gripper will be gently reminded in a beguiner review class and or by a frienly taxi.

A tactic i have employed sometimes when you get to repeat with the same person.
Very gently squeeze their hand before the repeat, and now release the grip now to a lower than normal pressure, ensuring your lead is slow smooth and gentle.

Not gaurenteed, but can put at ease some of the determined panic grippers.

Persistant grippers I have very gently clasped around their complete hand so they feel a light lead with no opertunity to grip, so they find the move accomplished with very light force.

Hope this may solve a couple of grippers for you.