View Poll Results: What do you think are correct methods of teaching drops?

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  • Any drop can be taught on a class night

    0 0%
  • Complex drops can be taught on a advanced class night

    3 8.57%
  • Simple drops can be taught on a advanced class night

    21 60.00%
  • Complex drops can be taught by any instructor in a workshop

    3 8.57%
  • Complex drops can be taught by only by specialist instructors in a workshop

    22 62.86%
  • Alternatives should always be taught for all drops taught on a club night

    26 74.29%
  • Ettiquette and safety rules should proceed teaching ALL drops

    34 97.14%
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Thread: Teaching drops?

  1. #1
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Teaching drops?

    The real worls problem of drops has come to be an issue again in our area. Its partly due to;
    • drops being taught at weekenders
    • a local workshop that sort of covered drops
    • drops now being included in advanced classes
    Being a 'safety first' type person I've always had major reservations about how drops are taught. The only drops I teach are (infrequently) as part of advanced classes; focusing on the safety aspects; with an alternative; covering only simple drops and leans. However, some instructors are teaching 'dynamic' drops, i.e. where the lady is doing into the drop with some velocity and/or the guy is moving into position while executing the move. Seeing what the punters are actualy doing onthe dancefloor (regardless of what they have been actualy taught) fills me full of dread. Over the last two weeks I've pulled two dancers off the floor before they hurt themsleves or anyone else.

    Soooo ... how do you think drops should be taught?

  2. #2

    Re: Teaching drops?

    My thoughts are
    Class night = safe dance floor dips
    Advanced class night (preferably fixed couples) = intermediate drops
    Workshop with instructor = only teach moves to suit ability of teacher AND class
    Workshop with specialist = exactly same as above
    Every move should have an alternative (wherever possible) to suit level of dancers ability and the dance environment
    Safety and etiquette should always be taught before, during and after class.
    Buying a DVD of drops & Seducers is of paramount importance
    LL

  3. #3
    An Eclectic Toaster
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    Re: Teaching drops?

    How about forcing every guy who wants to do drops to learn the lady's part?

    Or using such a lesson as a threat to any drop monster caught at a venue.

    Otherwise, everything LL said.

  4. #4
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    Re: Teaching drops?

    My safety advice is do not teach drops to social dancers.

    The logic goes like this.

    1. Drops are too dangerous to do on a social dance floor.
    2. If you only dance socially you have no need or opportunity to do drops.
    3. As social dancers have no need or opportunity to do drops there's no need to teach drops to them.

    Competition dancers and cabaret dancers need to be able to do lifts and drops and should be taught them by someone who has the experience to do and teach them safely.

    N.B. For the purposes of this post I have chosen to class a drop as any move that results in the girls head being lower than the guys waist. This doesn't include leans or seducers which are really dips.

  5. #5
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    Re: Teaching drops?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lounge Lizard
    My thoughts are
    Class night = safe dance floor dips
    Advanced class night (preferably fixed couples) = intermediate drops
    Workshop with instructor = only teach moves to suit ability of teacher AND class
    Workshop with specialist = exactly same as above
    Every move should have an alternative (wherever possible) to suit level of dancers ability and the dance environment
    Safety and etiquette should always be taught before, during and after class.
    Buying a DVD of drops & Seducers is of paramount importance
    LL


    I learnt almost all of the drops that I and my partner use from Mr Lizard at specialist classes at weekenders and must admit that I love using them where music and space permit. I found it great that I was learning from someone that put safety first but quickly found that not having fixed partners was counterproductive. There were very few DROPS that I found could be used on a social dance floor (subject to space, drops ettiquette etc) because they had a huge potential for injury and both parties had to accomodate their partners height/weight/skill level. DIPS on the other hand could be used provided they were done smoothly, relatively slowly and in a controlled manner on any forewarned woman that has given her permission for such moves that isn't prone to throwing herself about.

    Looking back I would have loved to have learnt drops in the same way that I learnt airsteps.

    1) From specialist teachers (which I did with Mr Lizard)

    2) A fixed regular partner.

    3) In a group small enough that the instructor can come and give you individual attention to correct errors that you are making.

    4) Where another couple is present and can act as spotters to protect the interests of both people practicing the drop.

    Small groups and individual attention cost money but it is cheaper than phsyiotherapy.

    My little tip for anyone doing drops - Never underestimate the ability of someone to walk backwards onto a dance floor right into the place where you were going to do a drop. There is a large amount of floor available but they want to be in your trouser cuff. How they know the exact time and place I will never know. It must be a sixth sense.

    Happy Dancing

  6. #6
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    Re: Teaching drops?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef
    Never underestimate the ability of someone to walk backwards onto a dance floor right into the place where you were going to do a drop. There is a large amount of floor available but they want to be in your trouser cuff. How they know the exact time and place I will never know. It must be a sixth sense.

    Happy Dancing
    I actually confronted one of these guys in November at Camber. He was walking onto the dance floor backwards talking to his partner. I managed to dodge out of his way and take my partner with me - Mr Backwards just bumped into the dancer the other side of me instead. As he bounced off he came back towards me and I said "it would be safer if you walked forwards onto the dance floor". Mr Backwards seemed sincerely grateful for the advice

  7. #7
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    Re: Teaching drops?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart M
    Using such a lesson as a threat to any drop monster caught at a venue.
    Is learning to follow so terrible that it can be used as a threat?

  8. #8
    Registered User Northants Girly's Avatar
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    Re: Teaching drops?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper
    Is learning to follow so terrible that it can be used as a threat?
    Depends who you are following

  9. #9
    Not a spoon! Lou's Avatar
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    Re: Teaching drops?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart M
    How about forcing every guy who wants to do drops to learn the lady's part?

    Or using such a lesson as a threat to any drop monster caught at a venue.
    It doesn't work. I've led our local infamous serial airstepper/dropper into a Ballroom Drop & he still continues.

  10. #10
    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: Teaching drops?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart M
    How about forcing every guy who wants to do drops to learn the lady's part?
    I actually think this is a really good idea! And I'm NOT being flippant!

    Men can see for themselves how it feels to put their trust in someone and because the average man is probably slightly heavier than the average woman, this will make them concentrate much more on their technique.

    Another point is, most men aren't used to following, so this is a true test for the leaders technique, as to whether it will work with a woman who is not very used to drops. Instead of relying on the woman compensating for any bad technique!

    Like me, for example, I sometimes come across a problem, where a new partner will judge that i'm a fairly experienced follower, therefore assumes that my dropping ability matches my dancing ability, which it doesn't!
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  11. #11
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    Re: Teaching drops?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory
    I actually think this is a really good idea! And I'm NOT being flippant!

    Men can see for themselves how it feels to put their trust in someone and because the average man is probably slightly heavier than the average woman, this will make them concentrate much more on their technique.

    Another point is, most men aren't used to following, so this is a true test for the leaders technique, as to whether it will work with a woman who is not very used to drops. Instead of relying on the woman compensating for any bad technique!

    Like me, for example, I sometimes come across a problem, where a new partner will judge that i'm a fairly experienced follower, therefore assumes that my dropping ability matches my dancing ability, which it doesn't!
    I agree that men should feel what it's like to be dipped.

    I also think the lady should swap over and try and dip (another lady ) just to feel how much the man relies on us to -

    a) take our own weight
    b) only actually dip when led to do so.

    That would have to be done in a controlled environment/workshop with a spotter I think. Wouldn't want any more injuries, but it is an important eye opener IMHO.

    The forces are enormous if the woman doesn't take her weight. I dipped an really slim eight stone woman in a class once, she threw herself at the floor uninvited. I so nearly went down with her, and I certainly pulled a few muscles catching her.

    ZW

  12. #12
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    Re: Teaching drops?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zebra Woman
    The forces are enormous if the woman doesn't take her weight. I dipped an really slim eight stone woman in a class once, she threw herself at the floor uninvited. I so nearly went down with her, and I certainly pulled a few muscles catching her.

    ZW
    The idea of women finding out what it like to do drops with other women sounds like a great idea but as ZW found it seems to invite injury.

    Good technique (from both particpants) means that power isn't required. Lots of power comes in handy until you have that technique - it has its limits.

    Just like Zebra Woman very small lady once took it into her head that something I had done was the lead into a drop and promptly threw herself backwards (a bit like doing a backward somersault off of a diving board) when I didn't have my arms around her. In an act of unthinking chivalry on my part I tried to get to the floor before she did, suceeded, and stoped her from hitting the wood. The cost - one severely strained back and a hamstring injury that took me out of dancing for 3 weeks despite her tiny size. Anyone that knows me know that I am more built like David Barker but without the looks.

    Speaking ONLY from a mans point of view the aspects that give me most trouble (and the reason I will only do drops with my partner and a few trusted dancers) are these.

    Most women are not accurate with their spinning. So if the drop involves any turning motion the woman could end up anywhere within 2 feet of where you left them in an almost random direction. The man then has to get to where they are and reposition himself to do a safe drop. In this case the only really safe thing is to do is abort the drop and prevent the woman going backwards by a firm hand in the middle of the shoulder blades.

    The woman UNDER rotates and ends up in a position that is NOT at 90 degrees to the plane of the mans body. If the woman now went into a drop she would be leaning away from the man in a direction where the man has no strong base and will drag the man forward (and unfortunately on top of her followed by the man). She therefore suffers the double indignity of hitting the floor and being crushed by the bloke. The only option the man has is to either devise a way of ensuring the correct position or aborting the move.

    Personally I like to practice by standing face up against a wall and doing my drop lunge out to one side. This means that if I ever got in the habit of leaning forward over my woman (risking back injury) I would be sharply reminded not to do so by the feeling of nose scraping wall. If I had also brought my left knee forward so I might place my knee under the womans back (and risk injuring her back) I am reminded not to by the feeling of knee scraping against wall.

    When I practice these things with my partner at home I always arrange to have a large peice of foam under where her landing zone might be. Better safe than sorry.

    There is is no better way than getting specialised tutition from someone like Mr Lizard AND getting him to check what you are doing to ENSURE you are doing it right (if you can find him during a quiet time).

    Happy Dancing.
    Last edited by Chef; 19th-January-2005 at 07:41 PM.

  13. #13
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    Re: Teaching drops?

    There are degrees of drop, Gentle leans are safer than full flying aerials, with lots of moves arrayed in order between the extremes. The more extreme the move the more dedicated the dancers and their teachers must be til the most extreme can only be taught in a 1 to 1 situation with mats and approved PPE.

    As for reversing the roles I suspect that few women could safely catch their male partners in a full drop without risking injury. Certainly asking a normal woman to lift my 18stone in industry would be contra to all safe working practise and legislation.

    Lets offer an odd perspective, Offer say one or two tracks a night for jumps only,

  14. #14
    Registered User Clive Long's Avatar
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    Re: Teaching drops?

    Hi,

    I was introduced to drops at a Camber weekend event in Martin Elliot's class.

    He emphasized style & safety and described some “common principles” that underlie most (all?) drops. The key items I remember are:

    Stable frame for the guy
    Woman supports herself on leg nearest the man
    Woman keeps her “non-sitting” leg on the floor (important to avoid the couple tipping over)
    Letting woman down in a vertical plane

    Re-reading the above, I feel drops are not just a "guy thing" i.e. don't drop a lady who doesn't know the basics.

    I'm sure these rules are “bent” as one gets more experienced – but since that class I have been able to drop (and retrieve) ladies (and not just size 8 waifs) with confidence, safety and a little style (admittedly on simple drops).

    In my opinion, aerials form no part of social dancing, especially at the body-squashers held at South Kensington and Hammersmith. The aerials are selfish as they take room from other dancers and are intimidating to anyone within collision distance. Those guys who engage in aerials in social dancing have some serious inadequacy.

    Clive

  15. #15
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    Re: Teaching drops?

    Quote Originally Posted by Clive Long
    In my opinion, aerials form no part of social dancing, especially at the body-squashers held at South Kensington and Hammersmith. The aerials are selfish as they take room from other dancers and are intimidating to anyone within collision distance. Those guys who engage in aerials in social dancing have some serious inadequacy.

    Clive


    My wife, Sue is one of those size 8 waifs. Some guys seem to think she must love drops and aerials - she doesn't. One guy (who is locally called 'Ug' but is sometimes called 'Neanderthal') grabbed Sue for a dance. He regularly does surprise lifts, drops and seducers - I felt it was my duty to tell him that if he tries a drop or an airstep on Sue I would kill him. Even though he's about a foot taller than me* and weighs about the same as a hairy mammoth he got the message. I say tell these savages to get their act together

    *Maybe someone told him that I'm a trained killer**

    **I think the pink wig and tutu I was wearing might have scared him too

  16. #16
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    Re: Teaching drops?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor


    My wife, Sue is one of those size 8 waifs. Some guys seem to think she must love drops and aerials - she doesn't. One guy (who is locally called 'Ug' but is sometimes called 'Neanderthal') grabbed Sue for a dance. He regularly does surprise lifts, drops and seducers - I felt it was my duty to tell him that if he tries a drop or an airstep on Sue I would kill him. Even though he's about a foot taller than me* and weighs about the same as a hairy mammoth he got the message. I say tell these savages to get their act together

    *Maybe someone told him that I'm a trained killer**

    **I think the pink wig and tutu I was wearing might have scared him too
    I think we call him 'Flintstone Man' in Bristol..........

    Re pink wig and tutu, presume the colours clashed then?


    Elaine

  17. #17
    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: Teaching drops?

    Quote Originally Posted by ElaineB
    I think we call him 'Flintstone Man' in Bristol..........
    'Godzilla man' in London!
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  18. #18
    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: Teaching drops?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory
    'Godzilla man' in London!
    think UG suits him best

    word of warning - never start a conversation with him - he follows you around the room still talking


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  19. #19
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    Re: Teaching drops?

    My partner and I only know him as "Oaf" because of the village idiot nature of the things that he does. Because of the daft things that he does the experienced women avoid him like the plague leaving him targetting the newer ladies. Watching this this makes me feel very guilty. I feel I should do something. I have said to him that certain things he does are not a good idea on a social dance floor with a completely unknowing and inexperienced woman but it doesn't seem to make any difference.

    When I see it all happpen again I feel like I am standing by while watching a pensioner being mugged.

    Happy Dancing

  20. #20
    Registered User Zebra Woman's Avatar
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    Re: Teaching drops?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory
    'Godzilla man' in London!
    We call him 'The Gorilla' in the Ceroc central area.

    He's has let me plummet from a star jump (which I had no choice about) and I sprained my ankle. It was my first dance on my first ever weekender, Grrrrrr......

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