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Thread: Dance or dancer?

  1. #21
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Dance or dancer?

    Quote Originally Posted by cerocmetro
    Do people come along to Ceroc to learn to become dancers or to dance?
    This thread and poll from last year is basically asking the same question. A surprisingly high number of folk (at least to me) thought of themselves as a "dancer" rather than "someone who dances".

    Well worth re-reading (if I say so myself. )
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Dance or dancer?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    I read your original post before you edited it & replaced it with this, and was starting to reply when you removed it!

    Since when was being off topic considered a problem on this forum? Was looking forward to the ensuing 'debate'... ruined, all ruined
    Sorry!
    I realized it was a bit 'contentious' and unfort had to scoot on out, and I'm one of those anal retentives who needs to get the post just right

    Just as well really, as I believe I read in another thread the guy I was replying too has left the forum anyway.....

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    Re: Dance or dancer?

    Not sure that this is completely relevant to the discussion, (cos I think you are really talking about intentions when starting to dance?) but my own, simplistic, definition of a "dancer", in MJ terms, is a man/lead who has broken away from just doing taught moves, and moves me around to the music.
    And I suppose, the corollory (?) of that would be that a woman/follower would be a "dancer" when she can follow it!! Or actually much MUCH prefers it.
    (my very FIRST post!!!)

  4. #24
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    Re: Dance or dancer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
    It'd be to dance for me. I have next to no aspiration of becoming a dancer.


    In fact I actively sought out MJ/Ceroc as a dance style because it offers exactly that - the oppertunity ot dance without people pressurising you into becoming a dancer.

    I went to ballet classes when I was four years old and on my second class the teacher asked "Who wantes to become a ballerina when they grow up?" all the little girls apart from two of us started jumping up and down saying "Me! Me! Me!". The teacher looked at the other girl (who I still remember as miserable looking and slightly overweight) and said "And why don't you want to become a ballerina?" (in a rather accusatory tone), to which she shuffled her feet and said "I don't know". Then she asked me in an even more esasperated tone and my reply was "because I want to be a teacher like my Mummy" ( )... the teacher replied "Well, what are you doing here then?!"



    I gave up six weeks later .

    I love dancing. I love the challenge of interpreting the music and of following the leads of many many different people. I like the idea I can dance my way to a piece of music without being told it's wrong. I've been dancing (properly) for over 20years now, but I'm not a dancer and never will be one. And that's just fine by me .

  5. #25
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    Re: Dance or dancer?

    Oooops - apparently I did one before!!! (It's age - memory gone . . .)

  6. #26
    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: Dance or dancer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bara Davies View Post
    (my very FIRST post!!!)
    Welcome to the forum.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bara Davies View Post
    but my own, simplistic, definition of a "dancer", in MJ terms, is a man/lead who has broken away from just doing taught moves, and moves me around to the music.
    And I suppose, the corollory (?) of that would be that a woman/follower would be a "dancer" when she can follow it!!
    I got to the 'I don't want to learn moves, I want to learn how to dance' point fairly early on in MJ (I think about 6-8 weeks). So maybe the intention deep down is 'I'd love to be a dancer'. The reality is 'I'll never be a dancer, but I love to dance'. Just like I'll never be a singer but I like singing.

    Of course to the non-dancers (like my work colleages, one of which commented today that I don't walk round the office like everyone else, I glide apparently ) - I'm a dancer!

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    Re: Dance or dancer?

    I started Ceroc because I have always wanted to be a dancer. However, I was under no illusion that Ceroc would make me one. I just wanted the experience of dancing: and Ceroc provided that. The fact that it also provided a social life was a huge unexpected bonus. Initially the feeling of being 'able' to dance and the social life were the most important factors of going to the classes but gradually I became interested in becoming a 'better' dancer, and began to actively seek out ways of doing this. This allowed me to think of myself as more of a 'dancer' but as people have said before I think of 'dancers' as people who have had extensive dance training and may earn their living from dancing.

    I don't think of myself as a 'dancer'. I am someone who goes dancing. Going dancing allows me to indulge my childhood dreams of being a dancer. It's also a rotten good time

    NZ Monkey: knowing your opinions on the differences between UK and NZ dancing I am slightly concerned that you believe it's probably a cultural thing! The cultures between the dance classes are clearly very different but I think it's a mistake to draw too many conclusions about UK culture based on attending Modern Jive nights

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    Registered User NZ Monkey's Avatar
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    Re: Dance or dancer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emma View Post
    NZ Monkey: knowing your opinions on the differences between UK and NZ dancing I am slightly concerned that you believe it's probably a cultural thing! The cultures between the dance classes are clearly very different but I think it's a mistake to draw too many conclusions about UK culture based on attending Modern Jive nights
    Oh, I think you may be misunderstanding my intentions (don't worry, it happens a lot ). What I mean is that I think the ''purpose'' of ceroc here is to have a good time, and that's something that the company focuses on and does very well. In that respect ceroc uk and most of the cerocers here very much have their eye on the ball. I just don't think the same way of doing things would work as well in NZ though. I have a suspicion that I know just what the discussion Cerocmetro was alluding to is and I thought what I said might have been relevent to him. I don't think New Zealanders are so good at doing something just for the fun of doing it - which *may* be an issue Cerocmetro is facing thus sparking the ''dancing'' vs ''dancer'' debate. Even social sports in NZ are a serious(ish) thing in my experience for instance, and I'd include dancing in the same overall category of that :P

    As I said, please take that with a grain of salt. I’m not really making massive assumptions about the UK here based on dance classes and parties. That would be like comparing the economy based on the price of a Big Mac.

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    Registered User Alice's Avatar
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    Re: Dance or dancer?

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post

    As I said, please take that with a grain of salt. I’m not really making massive assumptions about the UK here based on dance classes and parties. That would be like comparing the economy based on the price of a Big Mac.


    It could also come down to the culture of the dance/MJ scene in each country though...
    (Just to throw another spanner in the works )

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    Re: Dance or dancer?

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    Even social sports in NZ are a serious(ish) thing in my experience for instance, and I'd include dancing in the same overall category of that :P
    Hmmm in my limited experience I would tend to agree. Given the relative size of populations, I would say there are probably proprtionally far more 'serious' dancers in NZ as they are in the UK. I've been to a few clubs in NZ and they do seem to 'push their dancing. Whether its more fun I don't know. The last time I went I was still dancing at a reasonable standard but was totally intimidated by the standard/seriousness of dancing at a club night at Lorne St (Auckland) .

    I would also say there there is a great difference in teaching workshops in NZ. I found the dancers far more attentive, focusing on more on the technique rather than just going with the flow. It was interesting that when I taught a 'back to basics' workshop it was packed out ... doubt if I'd managed to sell such a workshop in the UK.
    Last edited by Gus; 8th-September-2006 at 09:57 AM.

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    Re: Dance or dancer?

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    As I said, please take that with a grain of salt. I’m not really making massive assumptions about the UK here based on dance classes and parties. That would be like comparing the economy based on the price of a Big Mac.
    Just checking!!

  12. #32
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    Re: Dance or dancer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Hmmm in my limited experience I would tend to agree. Given the relative size of populations, I would say there are probably poroprtionally far more 'serious' dancers in NZ as they are in the UK. I've been to a few clubs in NZ and they do seem to 'push their dancing. Whether its more fun I don't know. The last time I went I was still dancing at a reasonable standard but was totally intimidated by the standard of dancing at a club night at Lorne St (Auckland) .

    I would also say there there is a great difference in teaching workshops in NZ. I found the dancers far more attentive, focusing on more on the technique rather than just going with the flow. It was interesting that when I taught a 'back to basics' workshop it was packed out ... doubt if I'd managed to sell such a workshop in the UK.
    There was a very good thread on (I think) the Aussie forum a little while ago comparing the attitudes of dancers at workshops in the UK, Oz and NZ, from the perspective of the teachers. I'll have to see if I can find it. It was talking about noise levels, how many people came, attention levels.... and how many people came up afterwards and asked questions or asked them to dance!!

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Dance or dancer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alice View Post
    It was talking about noise levels, how many people came, attention levels.... and how many people came up afterwards and asked questions or asked them to dance!!
    Don't know if its due to my aftershave but I rarely get asked to dance after a lesson Also, rarely get people asking me questions after a lesson, even if its been a technical one. In NZ that definitly was not the case.

  14. #34
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    Re: Dance or dancer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparkles View Post
    In fact I actively sought out MJ/Ceroc as a dance style because it offers exactly that - the oppertunity ot dance without people pressurising you into becoming a dancer.
    You heard it here first - Sparkles put the pert in oppertunity
    the teacher replied "Well, what are you doing here then?!"
    I can understand a teacher only teaching those with some sort of self belief and ambition....but from a 4 year old?? I imagine you need to wait until their age is at least double figures before that strategy will work.

    And thats a cute thing to say as a 4 year old - lets hope you never lose that cuteness

    Quote Originally Posted by Emma View Post

    I don't think of myself as a 'dancer'. I am someone who goes dancing. Going dancing allows me to indulge my childhood dreams of being a dancer. It's also a rotten good time
    Oh what. Tally ho pip squeek. Lashings of Ceroc all round

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    Re: Dance or dancer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Oh what. Tally ho pip squeek. Lashings of Ceroc all round
    There are days when I yearn for a 'flick the V's' smilie.....

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    Re: Dance or dancer?

    What a great thread - first one I've read all the way through. Plenty of resonance with SPARKLES and her early ballet experiences.

    Parallels here with education of children and the teaching of sport. It still seems to be the case that we teach children lots of team games with laudable intentions of team working alongside skill development and fitness but how many children go on to continue playing team games in early or later adulthood (apart from you sunday footballers!) - perhaps we should be teaching MJ (in fact I started doing so this week to chidlren aged 7-11)

    I believe we should be helping to give children a joy of physical activity and an understanding of why it is important in their lives that will hopefully carry forward into their adult lives.

    So - are we dancers or do we go dancing? I think it's all about how we want to be perceived by others. I know it kinda feels good when someone refers to me as a dancer as it kinda implies a certain skill level (oh how little they know) or dedication to improving. Being a 'dancer' suggests either a degree of professionalism (ie being paid to do it) or a time commitment to it that goes beyond the casual.

    I guess it really doesn't matter whether you consider yourself or others consider you a 'dancer' - we all go dancing with a host of different motivations.

    The dance organisations not least CEROC do however have to be mindful of our motivations to dance and this is where perhaps the distinction becomes more relevant. I had a chance to dance down on the south coast at Andy McGregors Rocksters and for the first half of the lesson found myself thinking this is too social, too much chat and talk by the teacher - let's get on with it but actually Andy had it bang on right - he was catering for his audience - the majority were fairly new and there for a new experience as well as to improve their dancing but he did make a point of helping me with some finer points of technique having identified the 'level' I was dancing at.

    Does CEROC do this well - not so sure? As well as saying pay less if you come after the intermediate lesson ie. just the freestyle bit could a better deal be offered for those who want to come for just the intermediate and freestyle element. Beginners get a good deal when they get a lesson then a refresher lesson as well so could, say once a month, teachers offer an advanced class after the intermediate class (not just more moves but styling etc - hopefully without it becoming too elitist) in those venues where there is another room (all kinds of logistical issues I'm sure). I know this would be beyond the current duties of teachers but I think it could be popular - how one determines who is suitable for the class would be whole other issue but after a class or two I think it would be fairly much self-selective.

    Dance or dancer? As long as it makes you happy who gives a damn. If, as indeed we are, we are first and foremost responsible for our own happiness through the choices we make then I will choose the class venues/weekenders/workshops/teachers/DJs/Dancers that do it for me.

    Last night however made me reflect on what makes me 'dancing happy.' Sometimes it is just a bloody good dance where the dancing chemistry thing kicks in and everything just feels great with your partner but my most enjoyable dance was with someone farily new where the dance wasn't really technical or fancy just lots of smiles and FUN! The best dancer doesn't always make for the best fun. Quite the opposite can be true. I will never forget on my first weekender a couple of years back (I of W Rockbottoms) as a fairly average intermediate dancer bravely asking what I considered to be a a great 'dancer' to dance and within a bar or two the look of disappointment on her face as I didn't match up to her expectations. I learnt a lot from that and will never be that person for anyone else new or otherwise to dancing.

    See you at Southport - I'll be the happy one - especially if Wes buys breakfast again!!

  17. #37
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    Re: Dance or dancer?

    Quote Originally Posted by me View Post
    There was a very good thread on (I think) the Aussie forum a little while ago comparing the attitudes of dancers at workshops in the UK, Oz and NZ, from the perspective of the teachers. I'll have to see if I can find it. It was talking about noise levels, how many people came, attention levels.... and how many people came up afterwards and asked questions or asked them to dance!!
    http://www.cerocforum.com/showthread.php?t=2220
    I found it- above is the link but it won't work if you're not a member:P
    Apologies to Adss- pretty much quoted verbatim but I thought this was a fantastic post (bit long though...)
    Quote Originally Posted by Adss on the Aussie forum
    Hi, I have to say that what appeared different to me is simply just an other opinion and in some cases based on a single experience. However, here it goes:

    Workshops
    NZ - I found the students’ attendance to overseas teachers’ workshops really high. Furthermore, I found the students very attentive (more then the other nations) and when ever the teachers spoke the students were instantly silent and focussed on what was instructed. The students’ energy level was very high and as a teacher I didn’t require to ‘inject’ extra energy. Once the workshop was completed the social interaction with us by the students was on par with Australia (1-2 students). Overall: they were definitely there to learn about the moves

    UK – I found the students participation on par with Australia (this does not cover dance camps as it is discussed below). The students’ attentiveness was great but not on par with NZ. Energy needed to be injected as the students were mostly semi-silent. The crowd did respond well to “increase of energy” activities – clapping, cheering, jokes, etc… – the curiosity seemed more about us, as the teachers, rather then the moves. What I did find great was the amount of “after class/workshop” feedback and questions. Once the workshop was completed the social interaction with us, by the students, was considerably higher then the other nations. Overall: it felt like they were there to learn about us instead of the moves. I do feel that this could be about making an opinion first on who was instructing before focussing on what was being taught. Overall: they were there to learn about us and then the moves.

    AUS - I found the students participation on par with UK (dance camps not included). The students’ attentiveness was great but not on par with NZ. Limited energy needed to be injected as AUS social behaviour is visible during the instruction phase – in fact in aerials workshops the norm is to request their attention before I/we cover a point (this is not a negative, … just different). The crowd did respond above the other nations to “increase of energy” activities – clapping, cheering, jokes, picking on the other teacher . After class questions were less then the other two nations. Overall: Students are there to learn the moves in a very social environment.

    Classes
    NZ - cannot comment as I have never attended nor taught in a NZ class

    UK – This will get me into trouble ;D
    Inner London classes – I can only comment on two experiences – teaching at Hipsters and attending one of Ceroc Metro (I think that was the name) classes.

    At hipster limited students attend the classes and mostly turned up for the freestyle/dance session at the end of the night. Beginner and intermediate class structure was similar to AUS. Hipsters at the time was supposably one of the most popular venues and yet the beginner class had less then 20 couples – it looked like there were very few higher level dancers in it. The intermediate class was bigger in size (60sh students) and it had varying level of experience. It looked like a few “advance dancer” were in the class. The peculiar aspect observed in this class was that a few students, although rotating, did not even try to attempt in doing moves they did not like. So we found ourselves looking at a few guys just standing there and watching. The crowed was not very receptive to our efforts to inject energy. This made it, at times, difficult to motivate the students as the venue lacked the social/fun feel present in most Modern Jive classes and in the West Coast swing class taught earlier on downstairs. The other difference was the use of a DJ. Although the CD player was next to us, we had to ask a DJ to play our songs throughout the class. Once the social dancing commenced, the class became overcrowded and clashing between couples were inevitable, even if standing still. Additionally, it didn’t take long (within a few songs) to tell who were the top dancers and where the varying cliquey group positioned themselves. With the exception of a west coast swing dancer, a few local friends, only two girls approached me for a dance. Very few moves were referred by names.

    Outer London classes
    The classes here were similar to the Australian classes. 99% of those attending were rotating through the class. There was a great mixture of advance, intermediate, and beginner level through out all classes. The students were very receptive to energy injection activities and were very social. Other then a funny accent, I couldn’t really differentiate between UK and AUS. No DJ was present and everyone dance with one another. Also, the foreign visitors (us) were continuously asked for a dance. The only other mention I would make was that we were asked to teach a kids class before the beginner class started. To date I have not seen this in Australia – although sometimes Modern Jive (AUS) does go out to the schools to teach.

    Overall in the UK there were considerably higher percentage of ‘leadable’ moves contrary to ‘signature’ moves.

    AUS – To date all levels do attend beginner and intermediate classes, although I often observe through out Australia “advance” dancers (and friends) sitting and chatting next to a running class instead of joining in. I think nobody uses DJs anymore for classes and all moves have names (many not consistent throughout Australia). Foreign visiting teachers always attract bigger crowds and students strive to have at least a dance with them. The classes have natural high/fun energy.

    Overall in AUS there was a considerably lower percentage (in comparison to the UK) of ‘leadable’ moves contrary to ‘signature’ moves. An exception seems to be for QLD and ACT where the percentage is almost on par with UK.

    Dance camps
    NZ - cannot comment as I have never attended nor taught in a NZ Dance Camp

    UK – basically the word that comes to mind is WOW!!
    I attended Camber Sands and was blown away by the number of students (1500sh). The variety of dance styles, teachers, and participation surpasses AUS. The duration of the “dance day” was also longer the AUS. I think the day started at 9am and finished the following morning at 5am. Although there was a heavy presence of Modern Jive workshops, it was far off in simply being an all dance camp instead of a prominently Modern Jive Dance camp as per AUS. The other difference was that most of the teachers were male whilst in AUS it is fairly even. Also, contrary to AUS, there appeared to be a sizeable contingent of dancers there purely for the dance parties. The dancers were very responsive to our energy injection activities and they all participated whilst in the class (see Hipsters comment). Post a workshop there was always feedback provided and/or questions asked – greater amount (%) then AUS. DJs were provided to assist us in the workshops. The events was well organised/managed. The teachers varied in knowledge and I felt that some had not undergone teacher training – based on basic teaching DO NOT DO rules – i.e. mock/criticise students on the dance floor, explain and/or demonstrate what they are about to be taught, class structure, etc. Overall: incredibly inspiring to both teachers and students and an insight to many other dance styles and techniques.

    AUS –
    The dance camps are mostly focussed on Modern Jive with a small element of other dance styles (some camps have greater more then other). The days are shorter then the UK and 99% of the teacher have had some formal dance teaching training. The percentage of couples joining in for rotation instead of dancing on the side of the class with just their partner is considerably lower then the UK’s. So far all dance camps attended by me have taught baby and major aerial workshops – this could be because the space used for training in AUS is usually ample for the number of attendees – not the case at Camber Sands (UK). The number of foreign teachers also is usually limited, contrary to the UK (more students could equate to more money available to fund foreign guest teachers). Social dance party are less cliquey then UK. Overall: minimal insight to other dance styles and techniques, but extremely social.

    Dancers’ Interest: Techniques Vs moves
    UK seems to be more focussed at the technique aspect of Modern Jive
    AUS seems to be more focussed at the moves aspect of dancing
    NZ – not sure
    PS: except for footwork where AUS is more about technique and UK about step movement

    Freestyle

    Musicality
    UK appeared to have more musicality then AUS & NZ in freestyle. An example was whilst watching dancers at dance party, in the UK when the music slowed down they all attempted to reflect the change. I have not witnessed this in NZ and AUS. Musicality is taught in all nations.

    Danced moves
    UK – ‘introverted’ moves with the exception of competitors or dancers with a strong swing & hip hop influence. Most moves tended to make the guy stand out.
    Adaptation of other dance style moves outside their main influences – medium

    AUS - “extroverted (performance)” moves. However, most of the moves tend to make the girl stand out.
    Adaptation of other dance style moves outside their main influences – high

    NZ - “extroverted (performance)” moves. As par AUS, most of the moves tend to make the girl stand out.
    Adaptation of other dance style moves outside their main influences – unsure

    Floorcraft
    UK – medium (despite hearing UK dancers rating it as high)
    AUS – medium
    NZ - medium

    Styling
    UK - seems to be focussed more about the body movement
    AUS – seems to be focussed on the arms, and although to a lesser extent) feet movement
    NZ – for years I thought for the guy it was focussed on the feet movement and, for the lady, on the hands movement

    Dips
    UK - limited although many are taught at dance camps and workshops. This could be a direct result of the overcrowded venues.]
    AUS – many … and before someone says it “yes, guilty as charged
    NZ – considerable amount, but less then AUS

    Aerials
    UK - none seen except on the competitive floor. Although on the respective forums AUS is referred as the nation which does the most aerials during comps, this didn't seem to be the case when watching UK dancers at the Jive Masters.
    AUS – Aerials are popular
    NZ – Aerials are also popular but less then AUS, particularly on the dance floor.

    PS.
    1) If I had to place it in order of the nation who performs the most to the lesser amount of aerials on the competitive floor I would say: AUS, UK, NZ. However, in social environments: AUS, NZ, UK.
    2) What was noticeable in the UK was that lots of Aus (Nicky&Robert performed/taught) baby aerials were used.
    3) UK does have some of the best “aerial specialist” that I have come across (i.e. David and Lily).

    Lead (guys leading skills) & Follow (lady following skills) - all nations are the same in the "following" arena. UK&AUS looked the same in the ‘lead’ arena. NZ looked like guys have stronger leads.
    When it comes to “Girl Sabotage (girl taking over the lead) this was unseen in the UK.
    However, it is more common & taught to be carried out at the end of a move in AUS.
    In NZ, it is common to be seen at the end of a move although it is also taught to be carried out mid move.


    Style influence
    UK - Female influence (not seen), Male influence (major), Swing (major), Latin (moderate)
    AUS - Female influence (major), Male influence (minor), swing (minor but supposably 10+ yrs ago considerable), Latin (major), west coast swing (major in last 4yrs)
    NZ – Female influence (major), Male influence (minor), Latin (major), unsure on guys footwork styling influence. Overall some of the NZ influence is hard to depict.

    Note: female focus seems to be on creativity (signature moves) & male influence on practicability (i.e. Leadable moves)

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    Re: Dance or dancer?

    Quote Originally Posted by TallGuyNiceShoes View Post
    ... Being a 'dancer' suggests either a degree of professionalism (ie being paid to do it) or a time commitment to it that goes beyond the casual...
    For me it also includes talent. Every once in a while I dance with a beginner lady at Ceroc who has never done dance classes before and believe that I can see she has "It". I know lots of people that have been to Ceroc for a long time and seem to me to have no chance of ever being a "Dancer". They enjoy MJ, and learning at their own pace, and I enjoy dancing with happy people. I also enjoy watching "Dancers", to the point of embarassing them sometimes. (Sorry ) And there is a wonderful world between the extremes ...

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    Re: Dance or dancer?

    The joy of doing Ceroc in my early years stemmed from a mixture of surprise and relief that I could do something that I didn't think I was capable of doing. Doing a competition six months after starting, which was the first Ceroc Champs at the now-defunct Equinox in Leicester Square and getting through to the Second Round of the Lucky Dip, was an achievement in itself.

    I think after that and doing a few evenings and workshops heightened my determination to improve and develop my dancing so that it was not just a passing fad. It was also the joy of discovering I had a natural ability for something that normally somebody of a capable level would discover as a child, not in his late twenties.

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    Re: Dance or dancer?

    Simple: I go to Ceroc to dance.

    And....these days, if someone asks a generic question: "What do you do?" (which usually means what work do you do - although can also be answered at a more general level) I reply:

    "I dance"

    ....I don't say "I am a dancer" - because that would imply I do it for a living (or part-time living).

    Spekaing of which - time for Ceroc Metro tonite..........to dance

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