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Thread: Dance or dancer?

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    Ceroc Franchisee & Teacher cerocmetro's Avatar
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    Dance or dancer?

    Here is one I thought I would extend from a debate going on in NZ at the moment between the franchisees.

    I am asking you to put yourself in the position of the organiser, franchisee whatever.

    Consider the majority of people who come along to Ceroc.
    Consider what a dancer is.

    Do people come along to Ceroc to learn to become dancers or to dance? I know there are other reasons, but I am interested in this distinction.

    But then when people start to dance, if they do, do they then want to become dancers, if they are not already, or do they want to dance more, if they ever did?

    Adam currently at 35,000 feet, not slept 32 hours and 9 hours away from teaching a class

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    Re: Dance or dancer?

    Quote Originally Posted by cerocmetro View Post
    ...Do people come along to Ceroc to learn to become dancers or to dance? I know there are other reasons, but I am interested in this distinction.
    Perhaps you might have a word with Mr. Ellard then, because I think that he should be very interested in that distinction too.

    I tried to persuade him to alter the membership form to have tick boxes to ask such questions as whether "New" members had attended dance classes before, had done any variety of MJ before, had attended Ceroc before.

    To my mind this information is vital to understanding how well Ceroc retains "raw" recruits, how good it is at attracting members from competitors, from other dance styles, and separating newcomers to Ceroc from old members rejoining or joining from other areas.

    IMO Ceroc should be deriving a huge competitive advantage from data-mining its database and it is not collecting enough reliable information to do so.

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    Registered User NZ Monkey's Avatar
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    Re: Dance or dancer?

    Well, coming from a New Zealander who’s just moved over to the UK…

    My feeling from NZ is that the punters are there to learn to dance (I know I was, and most of my classmates there were on the same wavelength I was) and to enjoy themselves doing that and practicing. In the UK the vibe feels the other way around – that people are there to have fun dancing first and foremost and that learning to dance ‘’properly’’ is a side effect of that.

    This was one of the first things that really struck me as a difference here (call it culture shock if you want). Whether that’s a difference just between the evolution and teaching of Ceroc in different hemispheres or more of a deep seated Australasia/UK cultural difference I’m not sure. If I had to guess I’d run with the latter, but I haven’t really been here long enough to speak with any authority on that subject so please take that with a grain of salt.

    Possibly not what you were after but it’s a slow day at work….

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    Re: Dance or dancer?

    Quote Originally Posted by cerocmetro View Post

    Do people come along to Ceroc to learn to become dancers or to dance? I know there are other reasons, but I am interested in this distinction.

    :
    From the perspective of an organiser.. the punter wants to came and learn to dance.

    From the perspective of a punter ... they would also like to learn to dance.

    To learn to "be a dancer" correlates with a higher form of learning.

    You learn to ride a horse before you learn to "be a jockey" or "showjumper".

    You learn how "to fly a plane" before you learn what is required "to be a pilot".

    Being a "dancer " has connatations of being within a dance troupe or theatre group or further education for fine tuning dance skills.

    To become a dancer I would suggest a high degree of learning is required whereas to learn to dance or a dance takes far less learning.

    Where as to learn to dance has a more mundane feel about it you will be taught steps / moves to this or that style of dance.

    Back to your original question if any organiser believes punters turn up to Ceroc classes under the misapprehension that they are going to be taught to be a dancer... then the organiser is as deluded as the punters with that belief.

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    Re: Dance or dancer?

    I definitely come for the fun of the dances and the good company of other similarly addicted people .

    If I get to be a better dancer then I will love it even more, and hopefully won't embarrass myself quite so much by missing my cues



    Whitetiger

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    Re: Dance or dancer?

    It'd be to dance for me. I have next to no aspiration of becoming a dancer.

    Since I believe this accounts for the majority of all people, I'd concentrate on that aspect as a teacher/organiser.

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    Re: Dance or dancer?

    Quote Originally Posted by cerocmetro View Post
    Do people come along to Ceroc to learn to become dancers or to dance?
    To meet hot chicks.

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    Re: Dance or dancer?

    I wouldn't like to define the difference between 'someone doing a dance' and a 'dancer'. Despite that, I'm pretty sure that all MJ classes (at least all the ones I've seen) just teach people how to do the dance.

    There are a handful of people who do MJ I would class as dancers. Some are natural dancers. Others have trained in other dance forms. I don't think any became dancers purely from doing MJ.

    But I think now there is a possibility that someone could do this - ie learn enough about dancing from MJ to be classed as a dancer. However they would have to go to several different teachers, as I don't believe any one teacher has that level of knowledge yet.

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    Re: Dance or dancer?

    Quote Originally Posted by whitetiger1518 View Post
    If I get to be a better dancer then I will love it even more, and hopefully won't embarrass myself quite so much by missing my cues
    I think this something that the original question ignores.

    I originally came primarily to learn to dance, but now that I come in order to dance I am also interested in improving or widening the dancing that I do.

    Sean

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    Registered User Beowulf's Avatar
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    Re: Dance or dancer?

    truth be told.. neither.

    I'm out there to get some exercise , meet interesting people and have a bit of a social life and a laugh.

    the fact that it's dance is secondary. however to answer the original poster's question as best I can I'd say I'm going to learn to dance rather than to become a dancer.

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    Re: Dance or dancer?

    IMHO I would say both.

    I know that I go out dancing to have fun and meet people but every dance that I have is increasing my skill as a dancer and I am learning along the way.

    I agree with UP in that to become a dancer, you must first dance to improve therefore both statements are true.

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    Re: Dance or dancer?

    I don't know why but to me, the word 'Dancer' conjures up in my mind, someone who dances for a living
    MODERATOR AT YOUR SERVICE
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    Re: Dance or dancer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I don't know why but to me, the word 'Dancer' conjures up in my mind, someone who dances for a living
    Yeah, me too. Thus, I'd rather say that I go to dancing to learn to dance- the social stuff is a big bonus but certainly not the sole reason to go for me.

    In general, I'd say that the vast majority of attendees to MJ classes/events would be there to dance- they go for social reasons or to get fit, or simply to get out of the house. Getting better at dancing is an added side effect...

    This emphasis on "just dancing" appears to be particularly noticable at weekenders. In the UK, most people I've spoken to go to a weekender to socialize and to freestyle, rarely if ever attending any of the workshops. This is reflected in the all-night (or nearly) freestyles at Southport and other weekenders. In contrast, a normal weekender with one of the Sydney companies will turn the music off at 1am (a "late" finish)- but nearly everyone will attend the workshops during the day.

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    Re: Dance or dancer?

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    Please delete, too far off topic
    I read your original post before you edited it & replaced it with this, and was starting to reply when you removed it!

    Since when was being off topic considered a problem on this forum? Was looking forward to the ensuing 'debate'... ruined, all ruined

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    Re: Dance or dancer?

    Quote Originally Posted by cerocmetro View Post
    Do people come along to Ceroc to learn to become dancers or to dance?
    I don't think this distinction is the appropriate way to answer the question. Please let me offer an alternative analysis that uses a standard psychology grid. The tool used is called the 6 human needs. it is taught and used by Steven Covey and Anthony Robbins in their corporate motivation seminars.

    Summary of the tool: human beings are driven by 6 basic needs that they must have in their lives. These needs are as fundamental as breathing, eating, drinking and sleeping.

    The 6 needs are:
    1- Need for certainty: the stable aspects of your life
    2- Need for uncertainty: taste for variety, mystery, change, surprises
    3- Need for significance: be one and only, different from anyone else
    4- Need for connection: the ability to connect with others
    5- Need for growth: the ability to expand oneself, to stretch oneself
    6- need for contribution: the ability to help others grow, to make the world a better place.

    One of the consecutive ideas of this theory is that when someone does something consistently, s/he finds several of these needs addressed by the behaviour or activity. If you can identify what these needs are, you have a very powerful advertising tool to attract and retain people (probably what the franchisees are looking for).

    Applying this to Ceroc, my analysis is that you need to distinguish:
    - The gender: male and female
    - The motivation: it's not the same when you start Ceroc and when you become a regular (probably the point that eludes people involved in MJ related business, with as a consequence, a specific communication per profile).

    So:

    MEN:
    ====
    Beginner profile: mainly interested in:
    - Connection: taken by a friend, wants to enhance his / her social life
    - Significance: hope to reveal his inner John Travolta. Envies the skill of confirmed dancers, on the floor and in the reactions they manage to get from the other gender; compete / teach
    - Growth: learning something new; becoming a taxi dancer

    Regular profile: mainly interested in:
    - Significance: Look at my moves. Me me me me me me me!!! Pushing others on the floor
    - Connection: in a positive way, having great dances. In a negative way: sleazing around and pretending that women like it....
    - Variety: different moves at each class; different dancers and dances every night
    - Certainty: the polished Ceroc format in a known venue / environment; dancing with regulars
    - Contribution: helping newbies

    WOMEN:
    ======

    Beginner profile: mainly interested in:
    - Connection: the biggest driver for most women by far
    - Significance: getting attention from the other gender

    Regular profile: mainly interested in:
    - Connection: as women are more congruent than men, the priority of their needs remains pretty much the same + women tend not to go dancing alone. That's another component that reinforces the connection bit
    - Significance: becoming a skilled dancer; getting attention from the other gender; being able to express their feminity in the dance and the dancing context; compete / teach
    - Certainty: the polished Ceroc format in a known venue / environment; dancing with regulars

    FE
    Last edited by Flat_Eric; 6th-September-2006 at 02:56 PM.

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    Registered User Zebra Woman's Avatar
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    Re: Dance or dancer?

    Interesting post FE.

    I would just add two things on the womens' side

    WOMEN:
    ======

    Beginner profile: mainly interested in:

    - Connection: the biggest driver for most women by far
    - Significance: getting attention from the other gender
    - Growth: most women want to become a better dancer

    Regular profile: mainly interested in:

    - Connection: as women are more congruent than men, the priority of their needs remains pretty much the same + women tend not to go dancing alone. That's another component that reinforces the connection bit
    - Significance: becoming a skilled dancer; getting attention from the other gender; being able to express their feminity in the dance and the dancing context; compete / teach
    - Certainty: the polished Ceroc format in a known venue / environment; dancing with regulars
    -VARIETY!: We love it too! the joy of an amazing dance with a complete stranger is one our ultimate pleasures. IMO This experience is particulary potent for women rather than men - as it's the 'strange man' who is leading the dance.

    I am fascinated by how different the dancing experience seems to be for men and women (or leaders and followers )............. Is Andy Mc G still here?

    ZW

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    Re: Dance or dancer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zebra Woman View Post
    - Growth: most women want to become a better dancer
    But do they want to become better dancers for their own acheivement or so they get asked to dance more?
    -VARIETY!: We love it too! the joy of an amazing dance with a complete stranger is one our ultimate pleasures. IMO This experience is particulary potent for women rather than men - as it's the 'strange man' who is leading the dance.
    There's plenty of them around!

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    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: Dance or dancer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Flat_Eric View Post
    ..... ....
    not sure if I understand all that


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    Re: Dance or dancer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    not sure if I understand all that
    To summarise simply:
    1- People's motivation when they start dancing evolves as they become more involved with it
    2- For this reason, try a one-for-all communication / advertising as Ceroc franchisees are trying to do it (distinction dance / dancer) will not work.
    3- By promoting those of the 6 needs that are most appealing to people depending on their gender and level, Ceroc increases their chances to attract and retain more dancers for a longer periopd of time

    Is that clearer?

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    Re: Dance or dancer?

    Quote Originally Posted by cerocmetro View Post
    Here is one I thought I would extend from a debate going on in NZ at the moment between the franchisees.

    I am asking you to put yourself in the position of the organiser, franchisee whatever.

    Consider the majority of people who come along to Ceroc.
    Consider what a dancer is.

    Do people come along to Ceroc to learn to become dancers or to dance? I know there are other reasons, but I am interested in this distinction.

    But then when people start to dance, if they do, do they then want to become dancers, if they are not already, or do they want to dance more, if they ever did?...
    In the beginner class - want to learn.
    Turn up at the end - probably want to dance
    In the intermediate - want to learn
    turn up near the end of it - want to dance.
    sign up for workshops - want to learn.
    quit after a few weeks - have learned enough, don't want to dance.

    collect the numbers, perhaps apply guessed percentages instead of absolutes, and you should have a pretty good idea of your answer.

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