Asking elite dancers to dance?

[Achelous]

I've been going to Ceroc now for 8 months. For the first six months or so I mostly danced with those people who had started at about the same time as me. Recently to get out of the comfort zone I've been trying to ask 4 or 5 people each night to dance who I've never danced with before. Beginners - well I've always asked them and asking the more experienced women who I'd sort of avoided up to now makes the evening unpredictable - but in a good way.

But there is one group that I haven't really had the nerve to ask to dance yet. Yes it's the hot shot women dancers (the ones that don't take part in the lessons, sit in a group off to the side of the stage etc) I had my first refusal a few weeks ago with someone on the edge of that group (her privilege I know, she can dance with who she wants to, she might have been tired etc etc - but she probably thought I was rubbish) and it is a bit depressing when it happens to you.

So how do you ask them to dance? Should I even try - risking irreperable psychological damage in the process?

[quiet_flame]

Firstly, good on you for having the guts to ask the "hot shots" to dance, these are the people who will help you to improve to no end if you get a dance with them. I think the best thing to do is keep trying.
They were in your position once.
They should remember how it feels to be at that level.
I think my best advice I can give you is keep trying, try a different person each night, time will eventually be on your side and they will say yes.
Most Modern Jivers are very friendly, the trick is to get to know them.
Daunting I know, but welcome to Modern Jive, it's a crash course in politics, human relations and dance, all rolled into one.
Good luck!

[Feelingpink]

How about you go to a venue where you don't know the 'good', 'elite' or 'beginner' dancers from each other and just ask everyone? It's kind of a lucky dip ... but perhaps it will give you the confidence to deal with whatever happens. We all get knockbacks and people often turn down a dance for reasons other than 'you' (on Saturday night there was a run of fast songs and after the first one or two, I turned down one guy because I didn't want another - but did explain that). Good luck.

[Andreas]

Asking who to dance?

[Yliander]

I've been going to Ceroc now for 8 months. For the first six months or so I mostly danced with those people who had started at about the same time as me. Recently to get out of the comfort zone I've been trying to ask 4 or 5 people each night to dance who I've never danced with before. Beginners - well I've always asked them and asking the more experienced women who I'd sort of avoided up to now makes the evening unpredictable - but in a good way.

But there is one group that I haven't really had the nerve to ask to dance yet. Yes it's the hot shot women dancers (the ones that don't take part in the lessons, sit in a group off to the side of the stage etc) I had my first refusal a few weeks ago with someone on the edge of that group (her privilege I know, she can dance with who she wants to, she might have been tired etc etc - but she probably thought I was rubbish) and it is a bit depressing when it happens to you.

So how do you ask them to dance? Should I even try - risking irreperable psychological damage in the process?

Great to hear that you are starting to ask a wider range of people to dance - it's one of the best ways to improve your dancing.

As to the hot shots - my advice would be to try again with a different lady or even the same one to a different type of song, different part of the night

but don't go putting thoughts in their heads if they do say no - like you said there are any number of reasons she may have said no - the majority of them and most likely nothing to do with you personally

[under par]

I've been going to Ceroc now for 8 months. For the first six months or so I mostly danced with those people who had started at about the same time as me. Recently to get out of the comfort zone I've been trying to ask 4 or 5 people each night to dance who I've never danced with before. .

This a really positive attitude that will serve you well. Keep on asking your dancing will improve for the variety and your enjoyment will improve because you never know how good a dancer is till you dance with them

So how do you ask them to dance? Should I even try - risking irreperable psychological damage in the process?

Re the group near the stage or those that do not participate in classes.. there are various reasons some women don't do classes.

I won't bore you with my understanding of those reasons.

You must though, ask, ask, and ask again as far as these ladies are concerned as you should with every level of dancer.


I would say after a 3rd refusal by any individual dancer you may wish to ask that person why? OR if you do not wish to confront the person then put them on your ignore list..... hopefully you will become such a great dancer that she will eventually ask you !!! Then its up to you

[David Bailey]

But there is one group that I haven't really had the nerve to ask to dance yet. Yes it's the hot shot women dancers (the ones that don't take part in the lessons, sit in a group off to the side of the stage etc) I had my first refusal a few weeks ago with someone on the edge of that group (her privilege I know, she can dance with who she wants to, she might have been tired etc etc - but she probably thought I was rubbish) and it is a bit depressing when it happens to you.

Very depressing - good on you for trying though.

You don't say where this was? Did she give a reason or did she Just Say No?

One thing that may console you - the hotshots typically aren't really that good, believe it or not, as their attitude keeps them from learning beyond a certain level. Anyone can always learn from any class - it just gets more difficult with time as you have to think more by yourself.

If you can't motivate yourself to do that, you won't improve much beyond a certain level. Nina still does classes - I doubt they're better than her somehow.

Refusal Rows (or Audition Rows) really wind me up - don't get me started on Hammersmith, it's not a pretty sight...

So how do you ask them to dance? Should I even try - risking irreperable psychological damage in the process?

Ask whowever you want, whenever you want. Refusals happen - my rule is, if I get refused by a woman more than once, I don't bother asking her again. But that's me.

[CJ]

There are no elite dancers.

There are some fantastic dancers who are way better than us mortals. (most of whom are delighted to dance with anyone. Remember: beginners want to dance like intermediates; intermediates- advanced; advanced- beginners. Advanced dancers do tend to enjoy a dance with beginners for 2 reasons: 1, passing on stuff to people who are where they once were. 2, dancing with beginneres does hone your leading/following skills.)

There are also some, erm, more exclusive dancers: these hang around some venues but not all. There are threads that refer to "Refusal Row" or "Iwontbe Avenue".

However good they think they are, they are not elite. Next time you ask, and I hope there is a next time, please remember this.

[Patrick]

Ask whowever you want, whenever you want. Refusals happen - my rule is, if I get refused by a woman more than once, I don't bother asking her again. But that's me.

My rule has been if I get refused 3 times, I don't ask again, but I'm thinking of revising that down to only asking once. I figure, if she is interested, next time she can ask me. I'm not short of partners who actually want to dance with me!

I was once turned down 3 times in one evening by one lady for specious reasons, which really hurt. Especially as she immediately danced with someone else after refusing me! Months later, I thought I must be good enough for her and asked her again. Gobsmacked to get yet another refusal.

If someone never intends to dance with me for whatever reason, it would be better if they said that, rather than giving poor excuses.

[Missy D]

This is so sad to read Achelous! I know what you mean though.

I have been dancing for 6 years now and competing for 5 years. I still get refused. This really upsets me still and often I wonder why. One day I will shout "why wont you dance with me"?

I remember one occasion when a good dancer asked me to dance I nervously said yes. I had only been dancing a couple of months so was not that confident. Anyway half way through the dance he stopped and said he couldnt dance with me and walked off. I went home after that so upset. I saw him at Hammersmith recently and obviously he didnt recognise me. He came up to me and asked me to dance, I accepted. When the dance had finished I told him what he did to me at the Casbah and he was really embarassed. A few people put me down in dancing when I first started which made me more determined to be a good dancer.

I could go on forever about 'hot shots' and Hammersmith but, cant be arsed. They know who they are and if they think they are so good then why are they not competing.

[bigdjiver]

...I would say after a 3rd refusal by any individual dancer you may wish to ask that person why?...

I would not dream of asking anyone why they refused me. I pay them the respect of assuming that they have their own reason, and have the right not to be pestered. Sometimes I detect "shall I, shan't I?" and will press the invitation, but that is rare.

[El Salsero Gringo]

...if they think they are so good then why are they not competing.

Um, can I just point out that not everyone sees competition as the natural pinnacle of good dancing... sorry, thanks, back to the thread...

[straycat]

Recently to get out of the comfort zone I've been trying to ask 4 or 5 people each night to dance who I've never danced with before.

Part of the 'out of your comfort' zone thing is going to be, alas, risking refusal. Good for you for taclking this one - it's not easy to start with. The key thing to remember is that a refusal generally says more about the refuser than the refused. There are exceptions to this (for example when a follower refuses someone who likes putting people into dangerous and painful dips) - but if someone you're never danced with before refuses you, that truly doesn't reflect badly on you.

So how do you ask them to dance? Should I even try - risking irreperable psychological damage in the process?

Yes you should, just don't worry about being refused. If someone turns you down, smile, accept that graciously, and go ask the next person straightaway.

My rule has been if I get refused 3 times, I don't ask again, but I'm thinking of revising that down to only asking once.

On any evening, unless the lady's said "ask me later" (I don't usually ask men twice) I'll not ask again. On subsequent evenings, chances are, I'll have forgotten she turned me down earlier (or that I'd ever asked her before). My memory's lousy

I was once turned down 3 times in one evening by one lady for specious reasons, which really hurt. Especially as she immediately danced with someone else after refusing me! Months later, I thought I must be good enough for her and asked her again. Gobsmacked to get yet another refusal.

You do need to forget about this 'good enough to dance with her' rubbish. I'm good enough to dance with anyone, and I always have been - and everyone is good enough to dance with me**. If someone's vain enough to think I'm not good enough to dance with them - well - they're welcome to their opinion - and I'd rather they refused than danced with me 'on sufference' - I want to dance for the joy of it - not to prove that I'm 'good enough' for anyone.

If someone never intends to dance with me for whatever reason, it would be better if they said that, rather than giving poor excuses.

Stray
** Sure - there are people I don't like dancing with, and have occasionally refused dances myself, but that's nothing to do with then being good enough, but rather because they do annoying things, like putting my back out or ripping my arms off etc.

[jivecat]

but don't go putting thoughts in their heads if they do say no - like you said there are any number of reasons she may have said no - the majority of them and most likely nothing to do with you personally

Sadly, I don't think this is true. Yes, there are good reasons for turning people down - tiredness, music, the need to freshen up, being some of them. A sincere refusal will be accompanied by an apologetic explanation, and if you're dealing with A Really Nice Human Being they will come and find you later to prove that their reason was genuine.

But most of the time hotshots leave the impression that they think someone is not good enough to dance with them - which, funnily enough, they never give as a reason for refusal.

If I was going to turn people down on a regular basis (which I am not about to do) then the first ones for the cull would be the ones that for whatever reason I didn't enjoy dancing with. So unless another (convincing) reason is given I assume that I, personally, have been given the thumbs-down.

I sometimes think I'm a bit over-sensitive about this, but obviously no more so than anyone else who's posted on this thread. Thanks, Achelou.

Anyway, don't let them grind you down!

[killingtime]

Firstly, good on you for having the guts to ask the "hot shots" to dance, these are the people who will help you to improve to no end if you get a dance with them. I think the best thing to do is keep trying.

Like DJ I disagree with this. The hot shots aren't always the best dancers, they might not help you improve your dancing at all since they might dance the whole dance "bored" or at least looking around the room. Definitely dance with experience dancers though.

I'll try and dance with a few beginners in an evening and, also, try and dance with a few people who are much better dancers than me. I learn from both in different ways.

[Little Monkey]

If I turn people down when they ask me for a dance, does that make me a hotshot? (Or is it my black and white shoes.... )

I do turn people down from time to time. Why? Well, I might not like that specific track. I might be tired. I might have a sore back. The person who's asking may have hurt me in the past. Or have really bad BO. It might even be someone I've danced with before, who I really don't like dancing with (for whatever reason). Or I might have just watched that person dance with someone else, and seen the look of agony on his partner's face....

Does this make me a Bad Person? A Hotshot?

I do (most of the time) give an explanation as to why I don't want to dance (too tired, need to change my top, don't like the music etc). And unless it's someone I really don't want to dance with (yanker, perv or stinker), I will try to find the person for a dance later on.

I don't think it's a deadly sin to turn someone down for a dance, but I also know it's not a nice feeling to be refused. I don't like getting turned down, either, and always think that I get turned down 'cus my dancing isn't good enough (oh, to have better self esteem!). Luckily, there's lots of people out there who do like dancing with me!

My advice is to just keep asking as many different people as posible to dance. Personally I wouldn't ask someone again the same night, if they have already turned me down once that evening.

Good luck, and keep asking everyone to dance!

[Daisy Chain]

How about you go to a venue where you don't know the 'good', 'elite' or 'beginner' dancers from each other and just ask everyone? It's kind of a lucky dip ...

I've had some of my best dances at strange venues.

I've even managed to ask a World Champion and a National Competition winner. If I'd known who they were, I wouldn't have had the nerve and would have lost out.

I just adore strange men...

Daisy

(A Strange Little Flower)

[Gadget]

Um, can I just point out that not everyone sees competition as the natural pinnacle of good dancing... sorry, thanks, back to the thread...

My tuppence worth: their loss.
I assume that you are there to dance and have a good time - if they don't want to be a part of that, then that's entirley their issue and nothing to do with you.
If you want to dance with good dancers, don't watch where you think they sit - watch the dance floor and see who you think are good dancers. Most of the truley great dancers intimidate a lot of people (just by being good) and so don't get asked as much as you might presume.

Glad to hear that you are dancing with a broad variety of partners lots of advantages and very few dissadvantages.

[fletch]

When I first ventured out of the Midlands, I didn't know anyone, so I went with an open mind and a big smile, and asked everyone, I hope I haven't changed now I know a few more people, I try not to refuse, my exceptions are, I have already had a dance with the guy and feel he could want more than a dance, I know the guy and he doesn't keep me safe (drops in a busy venue) or overly inappropriate moves, and never refuse someone I haven't danced with before.

There is a guy who regularly posts on here, who in my opinion is the best dancer I have ever danced with. After my first dance with him I said 'I bet you get frustrated dancing with inexperienced dancers' his reply was 'its my intention to be the best lead I can be, and to achieve this I need to dance with women of all abilities' that comment will remain with me forever.



keep asking

[KatieR]

But there is one group that I haven't really had the nerve to ask to dance yet. Yes it's the hot shot women dancers (the ones that don't take part in the lessons, sit in a group off to the side of the stage etc) I had my first refusal a few weeks ago with someone on the edge of that group (her privilege I know, she can dance with who she wants to, she might have been tired etc etc - but she probably thought I was rubbish) and it is a bit depressing when it happens to you.

So how do you ask them to dance? Should I even try - risking irreperable psychological damage in the process?

I remember one April Monday evening nearly 18 months ago now, I walked into a little hall called Kent House fresh off the plane from Australia. I didn't know anyone from Adam. I just asked a lot of people to dance because hey, thats what you do at a dance!

That venue was Jango and later on I found out that the people I had asked to dance with were the likes of David B, Tony, RK, Gus, Toby, David F, etc.... had I actually known who any of these people were, I would have run a mile as fast as my little legs would carry me. Some of those people are now very good friends of mine who I wouldn't have if I had let my own fear and intimidation get the better of me.

As they say ignorance is bliss, if you are new to a venue, ask a few different people while you still don't know who anyone is!!