One thing - who defines Ugly??
The guys looking at girls? - Everyone seems to have a different taste..?
The girls? I know I have up days and down days.. So I will vary in how shy/ good in myself I feel- and therefore how much I smile or push myself forward for dances
The combination thereof?? - I think every night you would find everyone giving a different answer..
I think there should be no categories at all like this, except maybe:
Beginner, Good, Better, and Expert Dancers
Whitetiger
Then we choose based on dance ability only? That's maybe not the best either... We might not want there to be any categories - but there are. Asking someone to dance is usually a case of making a choice of partner for that song, rather than a random selection - and various factors go into that choice. Looks will be one of those factors and the level to which it is will vary from person to person. And of course whether they are just looking for a dance partner - or looking for a potential partner as well - in which case they might tend to ask those they are attracted to, even if they aren't consciously thinking like that.
Sorry, wasn't quite how I meant it to sound -
Just meant that these seem to be the levels that we are all currently at. (a sliding scale where we all fit somewhere along the line from beginner to expert)
Whitetiger
Even that doesn’t work totally – should only good dancers dance with good dancers? How would the poor ones get better then? And one person’s good dancer can be another person’s diabolical dancer!
Maybe the question here should be “are there any dancers missing out on getting dances because of how they look?” And a follow on – if there are, what can be done about it?
Trouble is, I suspect that the answer to the last one is not a lot. This forum raises awareness, but then we are all so aware that none of us would dare behave like that would we?
Yeah, didn't think you meant it that way - ie only good dancers should dance with good dancers.
We can all talk about this, protest we only dance with people on attitude and ability not looks - but that doesn't change the fact that it happens. Its life.
But its not that the less attractive (or able) don't get dances, they just might get less than the attractive ones. I'm not one of the pretty young things. I'm not one of the fabulous dancers either. And I like to be asked most of the time rather than ask. And I do get asked.
LMC - fair point. Guess it's only those who might be missing out on the dances that might think anything needs to be done about it.
Maybe Ceroc will simply wind up full of beautiful people because the "ugly" ones can't get a dance... oh, silly me, we're all beautiful already aren't we?
I think there is quite a bit can be done about it, but more as a general awareness and politeness thang, and it falls to teachers, those dancers with the status to act as role models, and in fact, any other dancers with an ounce of awareness in them.
One of my favourite teachers, for example, does quite a bit in his lessons. If at the beginning of a lesson, there are unmatched leaders / followers, he will ask the followers to stay put, and the leaders to go to them, and cites this as an example of courteous behavior, to be extended to the social dancefloor. For the same reason, he'll often rotate leads, not followers - it's a small thing, but a certain complacency can easily build up from standing there and waiting for the followers always to come to us.
He'll give the occasional short talk during lessons on dancefloor etiquette - pointing out, for example, that if you've seen a lady standing there a while, obviously wanting to dance, and not having done so, to go and ask her. That when you've finished a dance, you shouldn't just abandon your partner and jump to the next one, but to actually walk off the floor together, and part with a friendly word or two. His focus is on social dancing, not on getting lots of great dances with good-looking people, and he does his utmost to teach that attitude.
Another venue we go to (AT) goes so far as to put out flyers round the venue talking in very gentle terms about proper dancefloor behaviour, manners, floorcraft, even down to techniques for getting dances without the embarrassment of a potential refusal (involves establishing eye contact before going over to ask someone, so you know before you set off whether they want to dance with you)
I think that if more teachers spent a little time talking about these things, it would help instill a nicer social etiquette for the dancefloor - and it's up to the rest of us to act in an impeccable fashion, and lead by example.
Stray
I oh so hope not - else I'd never get to dance with any of the Excellent dancers that we have in our midst (Examples only - not exclusively: Franck, CJ, Pretzelmeister) in a million years! (What a depressing thought )Originally Posted by Twirly
Originally Posted by Straycat
Cool way of helping, maybe we should go back to the time of knights in shining armour, and courtesy?? (oops then we wouldn't have the forum at all - help how would I cope?? )
Whitetiger
Looks are still a factor (as they are everywhere in life). However, for those of us who go dancing for the dancing, they are a secondary factor.
If we don't actually make small children run away screaming in terror (not recently anyway), but are still nowhere near Mr/Ms Universe in the appearance stakes and are limited in what we can do about it (owing to age, body type, whatever), then perhaps the answer to getting more dancing is to improve our dancing. And look like we're enjoying it.
I'm 36 and size 14-16, which means I do get fewer offers than a glamorous size 8 22-year old. But I still get asked to dance. (I just make sure I don't stand next to her)
I'm 27 and sz 10-12 so exactly in the middle - where should I stand ? (am getting a mental image of the Monty Python 'Class' sketch with John Cleese, Ronnie Barker & Ronnie Corbett)
What is making me jump up and down with sheer frustration reading this is the whole thing about waiting to be asked to dance - get up and do the asking!!!
On the ability front, as a taxi I will steer beginners (often literally) to someone I know and trust to be a good dancer when we've finished the taxi dance, to expand their horizons and make sure they dance with someone they might not otherwise feel brave enough to ask (the oh-wow-they're-far-too-good-for-a-beginner-like-me syndrome).
EDIT: by 'good dancer' I mean someone who won't overwhelm with flashy moves, who is patient with beginners and a firm enough lead to use a wider repertoire of moves successfully with them, and who won't grope/lech if the beginner is female
*makes a mental note not to stand next to lemoncake *
Older and bigger than both of you, but not saying by how much!
I think that most of us do do the asking as well LemonCake – it just gets a bit depressing for anyone (lead or follow) if they always have to ask and never get asked. I have nights like that, but mostly I get asked plenty, thankfully.
And although not a beginner anymore, I still have an issue with thinking that someone is far too good for me to ask to dance. I can do it if they’ve asked me a couple of times (though it’s still scary). I feel that if I ask someone really good, then I’m saying “I think I’m good enough to dance with you” – if they ask me, I don’t have that to live up to. Same applies on the whole to strangers, since I have no idea of their dance ability.
I like being asked. Yes sometimes I'll go and do the asking, but on the whole I like being asked. Perhaps that began when I was a beginner and surrounded by a lot of better dancers, maybe its because I'm a bit old fashioned (OK, shy ) or maybe because its nice to be asked to dance.
But I wouldn't wait to be asked, then complain that I wasn't getting dances. If the balance of numbers is way out, or if I feel I really want to dance a lot, then I know that I'll have to do and ask. But thats entirely my choice whether I ask or not.
And a lot of the time I do get asked. Which to me says that there is an element of attitude in all this (as well as looks and ability). I might not have good looks, but I think I do have good attitude.
I totally agree about the "not beginner but.." thoughts
However If I thought I was making the statement “I think I’m good enough to dance with you” then I would never in a million years dance with half the superb dancers that are too polite to say No to me...
It is at this sort of time that I really want a message on my forehead to say (in pink neon of course ) "Teach me please?? Help me to be to be as good a dancer as you - Please??"
Whitetiger
Disagree. And have plenty of first-hand evidence to support it, although that evidence is probably severely compromised by the typical gender imbalance found in venues in and around Glasgow.
And on the "doing the asking" side of the fence, while I have to admit that, making a decision between 2 women to ask to dance, if there is nothing else to differentiate between them (such as body language, apparent receptiveness to being asked to dance, smiling / etc, previous experience of dancing with them - i.e. 2 complete strangers to me), then I would be more inclined to ask the one I found more attractive. But all of those things I just mentioned will take precedence over the purely "attractiveness" factor.
I will also happily dance with anyone who asks - only on very few occasions under exceptional circumstances have I ever declined a dance and NOT followed-up with a reciprocal request later (i.e. I have promised this track to X but can I come find you for the next one>?).
In summary:
- yes, I think generally "more attractive" people are / would be more likely to get more dances than "less attractive" people, if everything else was equal. But seldom is everything else equal - probably most likely to be the case at a different venue / event with lots of strangers.
- in practice, under most circumstances, I think the answer is "no" because most people (myself very much included) ask other people to dance based on many other critera first, with "attractiveness" being fairly low on the list.
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