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Thread: The role of the Taxi dancer

  1. #81
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    Originally posted by Gadget and Graham
    The way it is stated suggests that a beginner lady can enjoy a good dance with the vast majority of men ("almost any man of any ability"), and I simply don't think this is true.
    If this is a falicy, then it would suggest that the majority of dances a lady has are not very good. I find it hard to believe that ladies would return week after week if most of their dances were poor:
    Is one "good" dance a night sufficient to come back for?
    I think that you are quoting both ends of the extremes - the black and white if you will Gadget. I don't think Graham suggests that there is only one good dance per night - merely that most beginner ladies don't enjoy a good dance with almost every man, for a variety of reasons. And I have to agree with him.

    Not the majority doesn't immediately mean one.

    There is also definitely a lot of grey area in between, where both partners (because, this all seems to be directed to the lady enjoying her partner, and I have met a number of ladies that I do not enjoy dancing with over my time, and I'm sure that every other man can relate) can enjoy a dance to a varying degree. I have excellent dances, good dances, enjoyable dances, fun dances, sexy dances, and also the not-so-good dances on almost every night I go dancing.

    My partners just have crap dances

    Steve

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    Originally posted by Graham
    Not in my opinion. I believe that good leading is what makes the lead smoother. It's possible to lead smoothly without any great level of musical interpretation or interesting style, and it's also possible to have bags of musicality and style and be a poor lead.
    Yes, you can have lead without musicality/style {and visa versa}.

    Most beginner ladys I have danced with can dance to the music before picking up any lead signals - if (as a lead) you can addapt to their musicality rather than forcing them to yours, it helps smooth the lead. This is normally what good followers do; 'read' the lead's musicality and addapt to it. If it is a popular track that you are both singing allong to {:sorry:}, then the lady will be more atune to any simple "break" leads, no matter what their level.

    Style is subtally different in that it aids smooth transitions between moves rather than the moves themselves - a move done with technical precision and no style offers a multitude of possiblities into the next move. If led well {but not necissaraly technicaly accurate}, 'style' can be injected to flow the move into another one, giving the follower less options and more a feeling of dancing rather than just following the moves.

    So {in my opinion} style and musicality do add to the lead's ability and smooth the lead for the lady.

    Tramp: when did you get the role of ombisman? I still post the question - How many good dances does it take to entice you to come back next week?

  3. #83
    Registered User thewacko's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Gadget


    I still post the question - How many good dances does it take to entice you to come back next week?
    i dont think it is just how many dances it takes to entice anyone back, its more to do with the general atmosphere of the venue, and the friendlyness of the clientelle, this is - as mentioned earlier by someone else - where the role of the taxi dancer comes in, making themselves freely available to newcomers and welcoming them.

    I am still amazed how many people come to ceroc venues, have an occaisonal dance but mainly come for the social element rather than hard core ceroc. Strengthening my point - its not how many dances it takes

    careful wak i'm almost taking it serious

  4. #84
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    Originally posted by Gadget
    Most beginner ladies I have danced with can dance to the music before picking up any lead signals - if (as a lead) you can adapt to their musicality rather than forcing them to yours, it helps smooth the lead. This is normally what good followers do; 'read' the lead's musicality and adapt to it. If it is a popular track that you are both singing along to {:sorry:}, then the lady will be more atune to any simple "break" leads, no matter what their level.
    I'm extremely impressed that you're capable of reading your beginner ladies so well that you can tell the difference between them hesitating through being uncertain of what you're about to do, and them intentionally pausing to introduce their own musical interpretation. And I've only met a VERY small number of beginners who were confident enough about what they were doing to even try any musical interpretation.

    Originally posted by Gadget
    Style is subtly different in that it aids smooth transitions between moves rather than the moves themselves - a move done with technical precision and no style offers a multitude of possibilities into the next move. If led well {but not necessarily technically accurate}, 'style' can be injected to flow the move into another one, giving the follower less options and more a feeling of dancing rather than just following the moves.
    We seem to be talking about different things. Style as far as I'm concerned is about the way you hold your body, footwork, how you use your free hand, etc. I don't see how this affects transitions between moves, and I don't see how it would make it smoother for your partner.

    Originally posted by Gadget
    Tramp: when did you get the role of ombudsman? I still pose the question - How many good dances does it take to entice you to come back next week?
    Speaking personally it only takes one or two. Which isn't to say that the rest are bad - most will be average, and some will be fun or sexy, with just the odd bad one here and there.

  5. #85
    Registered User thewacko's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
    Whats that supposed to mean?????
    no caps in this reply does that mean i am whispering

  6. #86
    Registered User Tazmanian Devil's Avatar
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    Originally posted by thewacko
    no caps in this reply does that mean i am whispering
    you whispering NEVER!!!!!!

    Still didn't tell me what you meant by your earlier comment

  7. #87
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    Originally posted by Gadget
    Most beginner ladys I have danced with can dance to the music before picking up any lead signals - if (as a lead) you can addapt to their musicality rather than forcing them to yours, it helps smooth the lead. This is normally what good followers do; 'read' the lead's musicality and addapt to it. If it is a popular track that you are both singing allong to {:sorry:}, then the lady will be more atune to any simple "break" leads, no matter what their level.
    I'm afraid I agree with Graham on this one. I've never met a beginner lady who can do this. Considering most people that start ceroc tend to come from doing handbag dancing if I were to adapt my lead to their musicality then I'm no longer jiving but holding hands while doing handbag dancing.

    To be honest I think it takes an experienced dancer to be able to be a good follower and an even more experienced dancer to adapt to the leads musicality.

    Originally posted by Gadget
    Style is subtally different in that it aids smooth transitions between moves rather than the moves themselves - a move done with technical precision and no style offers a multitude of possiblities into the next move. If led well {but not necissaraly technicaly accurate}, 'style' can be injected to flow the move into another one, giving the follower less options and more a feeling of dancing rather than just following the moves.
    b]
    I think theres a very fine line here. A move done technically precise does offer a multitude of options for the next move. But adding style to the move doesn't remove any of those options. In fact I think it opens up more options as you can play with the move change it by making it longer, slow it down, speed it up etc and for the follower offers more options for them to improvise if they wish too.

  8. #88
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    Originally posted by Jon
    To be honest I think it takes an experienced dancer to be able to be a good follower and an even more experienced dancer to adapt to the leads musicality.
    I don't know; I'm not a follower, but I reacon that in order to dance with someone you need to both be moving to the same parts of the music. Normally it's the lead who dictates this - if the follower can follow the lead in his timing, then that's musicality; the skill of the lead can then take the follower allong with them in expressions of the song. {no matter what the level of the follower}
    btw "simple breaks" to me are things like holding a basket for an extra count, or timing the catch of a free-spin to the music and add an extra beat for emphasis, or elongating an exit from a comb,...

    I think theres a very fine line here. A move done technically precise does offer a multitude of options for the next move. But adding style to the move doesn't remove any of those options. In fact I think it opens up more options as you can play with the move change it by making it longer, slow it down, speed it up etc and for the follower offers more options for them to improvise if they wish too.
    can, yes. I agree that adding some style elements can open the follower's up to more options. But they can also be used to narrow down the options: Making a move longer and directing it into another one without any noticable join between them. Slowing a move down to a more controlled move allows stronger leading. Speeding a move up can allow you to move into a better position to lead the next move. And giving beginners space to improvise is a futile effort that leads to confusion.
    I'm not saying that a move should not be done with technical precision - but there are occasions that elements of style can be used to better lead a beginner.

  9. #89
    Registered User ChrisA's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Jon
    I'm afraid I agree with Graham on this one. I've never met a beginner lady who can do this. Considering most people that start ceroc tend to come from doing handbag dancing if I were to adapt my lead to their musicality then I'm no longer jiving but holding hands while doing handbag dancing.
    Strongly agree with this. There are quite a few beginner ladies (maybe 10-15%) who try very hard to hold hands while handbag dancing. They do all kinds of "stuff" which on its own might look quite nice, but isn't in any way partner dancing. IME, these are among the hardest to get through to. They tend not to stay for very long, either. Possibly, and understandably, because they aren't enjoying it very much.

    To be honest I think it takes an experienced dancer to be able to be a good follower and an even more experienced dancer to adapt to the leads musicality.
    This is certainly true in general, but there are some "naturals" that follow exceptionally well quite instinctively. They tend to be confident as people, and hence relatively relaxed.

    Getting beginner ladies to slow down is one of the keys to their learning to follow, IMHO. If they're nervous, they will take a lead (no matter how gentle) as a cue to leap into a move like a startled rabbit, which spoils the timing, balance, and puts the guy off too. Whereas if they relax, and resist rather than jumping in the direction of the lead, everything is far better. This is somewhat counterintuitive, though, and not anywhere near as easy to teach in a class as it is one to one.

    Chris

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    Originally posted by ChrisA
    Getting beginner ladies to slow down is one of the keys to their learning to follow, IMHO. If they're nervous, they will take a lead (no matter how gentle) as a cue to leap into a move like a startled rabbit, which spoils the timing, balance, and puts the guy off too. Whereas if they relax, and resist rather than jumping in the direction of the lead, everything is far better. This is somewhat counterintuitive, though, and not anywhere near as easy to teach in a class as it is one to one.
    Excellent point, Chris. I'd noticed this tendency but never really thought it out as clearly as you've expressed it - thanks!

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    Originally posted by Gadget
    I agree that adding some style elements can open the follower's up to more options. But they can also be used to narrow down the options: Making a move longer and directing it into another one without any noticable join between them. Slowing a move down to a more controlled move allows stronger leading. Speeding a move up can allow you to move into a better position to lead the next move.
    I'm not saying that a move should not be done with technical precision - but there are occasions that elements of style can be used to better lead a beginner.
    I'm still mystified as to what the style elements are that make it easier for the follower.

    If properly executed, all moves should flow into each other no matter whether you are using lots of extra "style" or not. Adding extra beats to moves does not affect how technically accurate your lead is. Splicing two moves together is improvisation, rather than what I was thinking of as "style".

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    Originally posted by Graham
    I'm still mystified as to what the style elements are that make it easier for the follower.
    The examples I used were from the post I was replying to; I suppose it all depends on your definition of "Style":
    To me it's the difference between acting and just saying the lines - it adds emotional content and drama.
    Although moves can be led smoothly and with technical proficency into each other, there are some simple lead aids I use on beginners that are not technically correct, add to the style and help me lead:
    eg. On a step-accross, using the right hand to guide the lady past. Using the off-hand on the lady's shoulder to help her stop and emphisise the push on a lady-spin...
    But what I was referring to mainly was the lead's position relative to the lady - moving around the lady in preperation for moves involves more style than the "...and step back..." that is taught. (Whether this is style, skill or improvisation I guess is in the eyes of the beholder.)

  13. #93
    Registered User ChrisA's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Gadget
    adding some style elements can open the follower's up to more options. But they can also be used to narrow down the options: Making a move longer and directing it into another one without any noticable join between them. Slowing a move down to a more controlled move allows stronger leading. Speeding a move up can allow you to move into a better position to lead the next move. And giving beginners space to improvise is a futile effort that leads to confusion.
    I'm not saying that a move should not be done with technical precision - but there are occasions that elements of style can be used to better lead a beginner.
    Sorry, but I don't understand any of this.

    There shouldn't be noticeable joins between moves in any case. Also, stronger leading is required to slow a move down, not the other way round. And style isn't something that is either injected into the dancing or not. Not that I know much about style - but the greats (Nigel, Viktor for instance) dance with great style regardless of who they're dancing with - and their lead is invariably impeccable.

    Changing the speed of moves, adding or subtracting beats according to the dictates of the music is fine with a competent follower. But it just confuses new beginners.

    When I take a new beginner on to the floor, I start with a couple of in-and-outs to see if there's any instinct for resistance in the arms. If there is, I'll see if they step back when led. If they do, I'll see if they can turn reasonably in balance. If they can do this, there are a lot of options, and they will learn quickly.

    If they can't, I'll go through the beginners routine a couple of times, get a feel for whether they're enjoying it or not. If they aren't, it's often because they aren't feeling the lead cos their arms are too floppy, in which case (if I'm on taxi duty) I'll do a one minute teach on how to resist, including getting them to relax and slow down as I said before. Usually that transforms the situation, and gives them a basis on which to build.

    But at no time do I start messing about with the moves until I'm certain they can follow - I call that "showing off" which is a big no-no with new beginners IMHO. Dancing with beginners is about their enjoyment, not mine. Though when they enjoy it, I do too, hugely.

    Chris

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    "But at no time do I start messing about with the moves until I'm certain they can follow - I call that "showing off" which is a big no-no with new beginners IMHO. Dancing with beginners is about their enjoyment, not mine. Though when they enjoy it, I do too, hugely."


    Absolutely! Good point !

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    Originally posted by ChrisA
    There shouldn't be noticeable joins between moves in any case.
    Shouldn't, no. Perhaps it's the choice of move to follow move that can make it look disjointed then? Some moves flow naturally into each other: others take a bit of work to join nicely.

    Also, stronger leading is required to slow a move down, not the other way round.
    true, but I was thinking on a case where I had tried one move two or three times and it wasn't feeling right; I may slow an introductary move into it, then make sure that the lead for the 'problem' move was as clear as I could make it.

    And style isn't something that is either injected into the dancing or not. ~ the greats dance with great style regardless of who they're dancing with - and their lead is invariably impeccable.
    I dissagree with the first point, but agree completley with the second: I think that style can be worked on and added into your dancing at will. But is the 'style' of the greats actually "style", or is it just a level of leading above us mear mortals?

    Changing the speed of moves, adding or subtracting beats according to the dictates of the music is fine with a competent follower. But it just confuses new beginners.
    Apologies if it sounds as if I advocate doing this to every move or even the majority of moves danced with beginners - I'm not. If the beginner knows the music and I think they could handle a bit of variation then I might throw one or two curve balls; but no more and never to anyone that couldn't manage the "straight" variation first.

    When I take a new beginner on to the floor, ~...
    you sound a very cautious dancer - to be commended in a Taxi.

    But at no time do I start messing about with the moves until I'm certain they can follow - I call that "showing off" which is a big no-no with new beginners IMHO. Dancing with beginners is about their enjoyment, not mine. Though when they enjoy it, I do too, hugely.
    Naaa - "showing off" is much more fun when your partner can feed off it and then you both have tremendous fun. {And I normally do have beginners enjoying their dance - which means I do too. }

    What I hate seeing is leads shoving beginner dancers through moves that are way too complex for them.
    IMHO, simple variations on beginners moves are OK when you have sussed out that they know the basic move it's a derivative of. And you can lead it clearly. {confusing leads I think are more detrimental than confusing moves}

  16. #96
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    Originally posted by Gadget
    true, but I was thinking on a case where I had tried one move two or three times and it wasn't feeling right; I may slow an introductary move into it, then make sure that the lead for the 'problem' move was as clear as I could make it.
    IMHO, except when actually teaching, you should never lead a move that the follower can't follow. If you can't sense ahead of time whether your partner can follow a move you're about to lead, you shouldn't lead it. With more experienced dancers, you can take more of a risk, but with fragile beginners it has critical bearing on whether they enjoy it or not. Most of the time when a beginner fails to follow a beginners move (and indeed many of the simpler intermediate moves), it is the leader's fault, not the follower - either because the lead wasn't clear enough, or because the move should not have been danced.

    You should absolutely not attempt a move several times if it isn't working. This only contributes to a sense of failure on the part of the beginner.


    I think that style can be worked on and added into your dancing at will. But is the 'style' of the greats actually "style", or is it just a level of leading above us mear mortals?

    Certainly, the ability of the greats to lead even beginners effortlessly through relatively complex moves is remarkable - and more proof, if any were needed, that it's bad leading, not bad following, that contributes most to the failure of new beginners to follow.

    But although ability to lead well and stylish dancing tend to be seen together, they aren't the same.

    If you can dance with style, do it all the time, I'd say (I wish I could ). You don't have to hit all the breaks to be stylish.

    When I take a new beginner on to the floor, ~...
    you sound a very cautious dancer - to be commended in a Taxi.
    Thank you, but it's nothing to do with caution. It's about matching the demand placed on the beginner to their ability and experience - as with teaching anything, not just dance. It might sound cautious, but that whole process takes only about ten seconds, and it just looks like part of the dance - which it of course is.

    Chris

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    Originally posted by ChrisA
    IMHO, except when actually teaching, you should never lead a move that the follower can't follow. If you can't sense ahead of time whether your partner can follow a move you're about to lead, you shouldn't lead it. ~snip~ You should absolutely not attempt a move several times if it isn't working. This only contributes to a sense of failure on the part of the beginner.
    If I'm dancing with a beginner, leading a move that has been done on stage (and I have done with loads of beginners before her) and it's not feeling right, then I want to know why. Both so I can lead it right next time, and so she can follow it better. I say that knowing a move went squiffy, then doing it right is 100% better than abandoning the move as a right-off.
    I have only given up once on a move with a lady because I couldn't work out where I was going wrong. {soddin 1st move }

    But although ability to lead well and stylish dancing tend to be seen together, they aren't the same.
    So what contributions to style don't help with the lead then?

    It's about matching the demand placed on the beginner to their ability and experience - as with teaching anything, not just dance.
    but to get the most out of lessons, you need to be streached occasionally. I don't taxi {I'm mug enough that I actually pay to dance with the beginners } so I never interrupt a dance with pointers or tips on following - I just try to lead well. I don't feel obliged to point out any failings or mistakes. I smile, enjoy the music and dance.

  18. #98
    Registered User thewacko's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Gadget
    [B]Originally posted by ChrisA


    IMHO, simple variations on beginners moves are OK when you have sussed out that they know the basic move it's a derivative of. And you can lead it clearly. {confusing leads I think are more detrimental than confusing moves}
    for a new beginner, even the most simple of moves is complex, so are you saying that on their first night the taxi dancer should only do the first 4 moves of that nights routine. If so I disagree, as (hopefully) would some of the beginers I have danced with, as I dance them through other beginner moves and some of the simplest intermediate moves as well, not to show off, but to entice them into knowing what else they can do. Even though they do not know the moves or even the signals for the moves, it shows them how easy the can be lead, and also puts (i hope) a bit of fun into the dance instead of boringly going through the moves they have just learnt

  19. #99
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    Originally posted by thewacko
    so are you saying that on their first night the taxi dancer should only do the first 4 moves of that nights routine.
    Er... in case that question is aimed at me (I got confused by the half quotes)...

    Emphatically not.

    Sometimes less than that on the first dance, sometimes more than that.

    Often I will completely dismember the routine, take fragments of it and reassemble them together with other, easier fragments, in order to both (a) break the reliance on memory of what happened in the class that beginner followers often attempt to maintain, while (b) keeping things that will be slightly familiar. (An example would be, 1st half of manspin, straight into catapult, without the need for the turn under guy's right arm).

    Sometimes I will take a move and repeat it several times in a row, so they get a chance to establish some body memory; sometimes when they're really good but have a tendency to respond too quickly I'll demo the fact that I can speed them up easily enough (eg, rarely, with a double assisted spin in one count), but not slow them down (eg let them see what happens if I turn a normal step across into one with a ladies walk around ending (don't know the real name for that).

    But it's totally horses for courses, cos people are very different.

    Chris

  20. #100
    Registered User thewacko's Avatar
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    Originally posted by ChrisA
    Er... in case that question is aimed at me (I got confused by the half quotes)...

    Chris
    :sorry i am still trying to get used this chatline lark

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