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Thread: Israel v Lebanon

  1. #1
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Israel v Lebanon

    Sorry, but finding all this a bit hard to understand.

    My very simple understanding is that there are some bad men who Israel doesn't like ... but they are hiding in a foreign state. The foreign state, Lebanon, isn't actualy engaged in any hassle (directly) with Israel. However, Israel now seems to be kicking seven shades of sh1t out of said Lebanon. Isn't that a bit out of order? The analogy for me would seem to be (and please correct me if I'm wrong) for the UK to bomb Dublin because the IRA had men operating there.

    Of course only a cynic would say that if the roles were reversed that the good old US of A would be sending in their troops at a moments notice and screaming out their outrage in the UN

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    Re: Israel v Lebanon

    Whoops!!!

    Clicked on this thread thinking it was about a World Cup qualifier.
    For some reason, when you hovver the mouse over a subject, you don't get to see the first couple of lines of text anymore.

    My mistake.

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    Papa Smurf
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    Re: Israel v Lebanon



    to answer the topic though - i imagine the difference is that Israel feel that the "bad men" were in some way sponsored by the state. You're right enough though, a European country wouldnt get away with that if it was another European country - but then again European countries all have a good dialogue with each other.

    Ive not read this story, ill have a look- but bear in mind our news isnt entirely unbiased e.g. the palestinian beach bombing that was blamed on Israels gun ships - even thoght they werent there at the time. see here (the BBC never really apologised for the false news as far as I know so there does seem to be a bias - or an inneptitude cover up at least)

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    Re: Israel v Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    .....but finding all this a bit hard to understand.......

    You are not alone

    But If you want to try and understand the situation try

    The Great War for Civilisation: The Conquest of the Middle East by Robert Fisk

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    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Israel v Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    very simple
    yep
    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    please correct me if I'm wrong
    Sorry, don't have the energy.

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    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
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    Re: Israel v Lebanon

    To quote Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni: "Hizbullah is a terrorist organization, which is part of the Lebanese government. The international community, including the Security Council, has demanded, repeatedly, that the government of Lebanon dismantle Hizbullah. Lebanon has failed to act and today’s aggression is the result."

    PM Olmert (July 12): "This morning's events were not a terrorist attack, but the action of a sovereign state that attacked Israel for no reason and without provocation. The Lebanese government, of which Hizbullah is a member, is trying to undermine regional stability. Lebanon is responsible and Lebanon will bear the consequences of its actions."

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    Re: Israel v Lebanon

    Good quotes, Baruch.

    I don't fully approve of Israel's actions either. However, they are going for strategic targets, Hizbullah fire missiles randomly at civilian targets. So I know on which side I am for the time being. This may change if things escalate and civilians on both sides become targets.

    What really hacks me off is the fact that just when Israel actually shows a motion to make allowances to the Palestinians like withdrawal from disputed areas, these extremists have got nothing better to do than shooting themselves in their own feet. They clearly do not want peace in the region. The ironic thing is, even if there was no Israel there, they'd be fighting among each other ... just like they do at the moment in Gaza and Irak. This is such a volatile area, I think they are all nut cases.

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    Re: Israel v Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by Andreas
    I think they are all nut cases.
    No need to worry then. As long as the innocents are being killed, injured and permanently maimed only because the combatants are nutcases...

  9. #9
    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Israel v Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov
    No need to worry then. As long as the innocents are being killed, injured and permanently maimed only because the combatants are nutcases...
    I'm pleased to see you demonstrating an in-depth understanding of all the subtleties of Middle-East politics. Now, if you could just bring Gus up to speed, we would all be grateful.

  10. #10
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Israel v Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    I'm pleased to see you demonstrating an in-depth understanding of all the subtleties of Middle-East politics. Now, if you could just bring Gus up to speed, we would all be grateful.
    No need, just read the Independant on sunday (bit more impartial than the Israeli Cabinet). Israeli warmachine takes out several civilian houses and transports (as usual). Hezbolah quite happily continue to fire rockets at Isreali civilians ... usual story. Personal view is that the use of the Israeli armed forces in this way is on a par with the use of French special forces to sink the Greenpeace Warrior.

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    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Israel v Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    the Independant on sunday (bit more impartial than the Israeli Cabinet).
    You reckon?
    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    Personal view is ...
    No doubt both sides are filing this important dispatch in that special metal container under their respective desks, even as we speak.

  12. #12
    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
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    Re: Israel v Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    Personal view is that the use of the Israeli armed forces in this way is on a par with the use of French special forces to sink the Greenpeace Warrior.
    I disagree. What is Israel supposed to do - show infinite patience with Hizbollah while they continue to attack Israelis across their northern border? As the Lebanese government has shown no will to disarm and disband Hizbollah, Israel's options were limited. It's easy to sit here in the UK and say what they should or should not be doing, but I'm sure the picture looks very different when you're actually in the situation, your own people are being attacked regularly and you have to do something about it.

    Although there may be controversy over Israel's chosen methods, bear in mind that Hizbollah, not Israel, started hostilities by staging a cross-border raid on an Israeli patrol.

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    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: Israel v Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by Andreas
    I don't fully approve of Israel's actions either. However, they are going for strategic targets, Hizbullah fire missiles randomly at civilian targets. So I know on which side I am for the time being.

    Quote Originally Posted by Will
    Whoops!!!

    Clicked on this thread thinking it was about a World Cup qualifier.
    If we talking about the killing of civilians Israel are about 10-1 up

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    Re: Israel v Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch
    Bear in mind that Hizbollah, not Israel, started hostilities by staging a cross-border raid on an Israeli patrol.
    Israel started firing missiles into Lebanon, in response to the Hezbullah capture of two Israeli soldiers, in response to the Israeli capture and imprisonment of some of their soldiers, in response to Hezbullah firing rockets into Israel, in response to ...

    ....

    ....

    ..., in response to the Holocaust.

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    Registered User Msfab's Avatar
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    Re: Israel v Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch
    ... bear in mind that Hizbollah, not Israel, started hostilities by staging a cross-border raid on an Israeli patrol.
    Blame is what has got people into this situation! Who started first is irrelavent - we need to deal with what is now!

    Get rid of Hezbollah - easier said than done! This group and Hamas have shown themselves to be helpful to the people on the ground suffering under the occupation in palestine, by providing support where the leaders have failed. Palestine is what 90% of all this trouble is down to - 'remove this problem' these people dont have a leg to stand on! These groups which have based themselves on islam, because its the major religon in the area, which looks for justice! How do you achieve justice? well this is were the differences lie!
    In the meantime its the people 'Trapped' who are suffering.

  16. #16
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    Hezbollah Caught Offside

    Well Hezbollah actually went into Israel and kidnapped 2 Israeli soldiers, so we can clearly see that the first infringement was caused by Hezbollah being caught offside.

    Seriously though, I guess at any given time if they wanted peace, Hezbollah could do the right thing and give the Israeli soldiers back (if they haven't already killed them of course). Whilst they chose instead to lob bombs at Israeli civilians whilst at the same time use Lebanese civilians as human shields to protect themselves from Israeli attacks I sadly don't see how there can be any peace.

    For me, the blood in this conflict falls squarly on the hands of Hezbollah (and probably Syria and Iran for supporting them). The idea that there is a moral equivalence between the 2 sides is clearly wrong (i.e. saying that they're all as bad as each other) despite what the left-wing British press might want us to believe.

  17. #17
    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Israel v Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by Msfab
    Palestine is what 90% of all this trouble is down to - 'remove this problem' these people dont have a leg to stand on!
    Even if you believe this will solve the problems we face to day (and it's a big 'if') we again run into a problem of vocabulary, and the fact that not everyone is assiging the same meaning to words.

    For instance, Hassan Nasrallah, Ehud Olmert, Mahmoud Abbas, Ismail Haniyah, Bashar al-Assad, Mahmoud Ahmedinejad, and for that matter George Bush, Tony Blair, Jaques Chirac and Osama bin Laden (along with you, I, and the man on the Tel Aviv/Ramallah omnibus, for what our opinions are worth) all have very different ideas about what a sensible, 'fair' and 'just' solution for the middle east conflict entails.

    It's the fact that what one side sees as 'fair' ain't so to the other that's really the root of the problem. And no amount of politicking or military action can solve that.

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    Registered User Msfab's Avatar
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    Re: Israel v Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    all have very different ideas about what a sensible, 'fair' and 'just' solution for the middle east conflict entails.
    These people have ulterior motives which means they are not necessarily looking for peace/good!

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    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: Israel v Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    And no amount of politicking or military action can solve that.
    China solved their problems largely as a result of military action

  20. #20
    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Israel v Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38
    China solved their problems largely as a result of military action
    Really? Tibet's 'solved', now, is it? How about Taiwan? And the ongoing border disputes with India?

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