Hand luggage

[Dreadful Scathe]

I also think that at the moment our goverment and security services have more important things to think about than the frustration of airline passengers not having their own books to read on flights.

You're right of course, introducing a stupid blanket ban on nearly everything is not thinking at all. As long as they're thinking about more important things that makes me feel better when i witness the chaos at airports, massive flight cancellations, paranoid populace, climate of fear, anti-muslim uprisings, death and destruction....thats what you get for thinking you have "more important things" to think about.

[David Franklin]

I can see that being denied your own books on planes might be seen as the thin end of the wedge in terms of restrictions of your freedoms (if I squint real hard and stare sideways I can see it) but I just view that having yourself blown out of the sky would be towards the thicker end of the wedge in terms of the restriction of my freedoms.

Question is, where do you start and where do you stop? However extreme the security measures taken, there will always be more extreme measures that would reduce the risk further. So do we end up requiring everyone to have internal examinations to ensure they haven't catheterized explosive liquids into their bladders, before flying them in straightjackets while tranquilizing them to near unconsciousness?

Do we also compromise all the security to avoid upsetting the business and first class travellers? (E.g. it seems to me that being allowed laptops on flights has always been a relatively high security risk, but the cost in lost revenue of banning them has been so great that the airlines et. al. have effectively turned a blind eye).

Finally, we have to realise that airlines may be a spectacular target, but they are by no means the only target. Without wanting to get people feeling paranoid, I can't have been the only one looking at the massive crowds at Heathrow check-in yesterday and thinking "Heck! You wouldn't even need to get past security - just load up your suitcase bomb and set it off in those queues..."

For what it's worth, I think the current actions are not unreasonable as a short term measure, but if the security level is to be maintained, then suitable workarounds will be needed or a lot of people will think twice about flying.

Personally, what I'd do is beef up the security of the "air side" shops. In particular, I would do as they do in the states where you don't get to carry your purchases around, but instead they are delivered to the gate. It seems to me you could thereby ensure that all such purchases were validated as safe to carry on board. You'd probably want more shops carrying "travel necessities" than are currently there, but that's no biggie - particularly as you probably wouldn't want shops selling lots of electronic items. (I don't object to not being able to bring my own book/food/drink on the flight. I do object to not being able to bring anything at all on the flight).

On a similar note, a system for renting "validated" electronic items for use during flight would seem workable.

[Barry Shnikov]

This is my prediction.

It will turn out that getting on for half of the people arrested over the airplane bombing plots will be released and never charged, or never charged with terrorism.

It will turn out that there are no liquid explosives found anywhere in their homes, nor anywhere else.

There will probably be other signs of some attempted terrorist activity possibly including explosives.

The people arrested in Pakistan and who apparently gave the recent tip-off will say they were tortured.

There will be nothing like 10 planes involved.

The whole fiasco of Thursday August 10th at British airports will turn out to have been massively misguided and to have caused disruption far in excess of what was in reality required.

Somebody somewhere will sit down and work out how intelligence organisations can get things so massively wrong, and stop it happening again.

(OK, I lied. I don’t really believe the last one will happen.)

[Barry Shnikov]

It's not desperately hard to verify that a book (any book) *doesn't* have a hollowed out centre, containing chocolates, diamonds, explosives, or anything else. Regardless of where it was bought.

This does sound like a bit of an over-reaction. Let's hope some sense is restored soon.

It might be made of an extremely fiendish explosive paper, and will blow up if you pour Fanta onto it...

[Dreadful Scathe]

"Heck! You wouldn't even need to get past security - just load up your suitcase bomb and set it off in those queues..."

Indeed, this awful mismanagement which created the huge queues just provides an extremely easy target. You can walk into any aiport with any sort of bag off the street and blend in with the 100's of other people with bags. This would be a far better "payoff" in terms of deaths AND publicity for any suicide bomber!

[stewart38]

Funny, is everyone on the Forum too young to remember the security measures in place during the height of the IRA bombing? In Birmingham we had to submit to body seraches etc before going in to many clubs and hotels during the early 80's. Did we complain? No chance. We'd seen the carnage at the Rotunda and the Yard of Ale pub. Body searches and alive is better than no hassle and maybe dead. Freedom to live sometimes comes at a cost

Its funny when they use to kick us out of Waterloo station re another bomb scare and when they got rid of the bins it was bloody inconvenient.

A few explosion in the city, one taking out the windows where I worked seemed to make the ‘inconvenience’ less


I guess if 3000 people had died and 10 planes had been blown up people wouldn’t moan about what books they should/n’t be allowed to take on board

Duty free you pick up, you don’t carry it around. You have some very limited items in a see through bag

So no more taking on board porn books and women’s underwear but I can live with that

[David Bailey]

Indeed, this awful mismanagement which created the huge queues just provides an extremely easy target. You can walk into any aiport with any sort of bag off the street and blend in with the 100's of other people with bags. This would be a far better "payoff" in terms of deaths AND publicity for any suicide bomber!

If you weren't fixated on death, but just wanted to cause massive disruption (like the IRA did), you'd only need to leave a bag unattended in the crowd and/or phone in a threat...

[Louisa]

Louisa was flying back to Edinburgh yesterday from Southampton. Just thought I'd mention: once you get past security you can buy whatever you like from the shops (note: since they are doing secondary searches on some flights to the US this might not be the case for those flights) and take it on board. I'd keep a receipt though just in case.

So as long as you are willing to put up with starting another book from a limited selection then at least you have something to read if your plane is delayed for 6 hours.

Yep - I was caught up in all the chaos yesterday! Thought I'd post about my experience so anyone flying over the next few days (or longer depending on how long they keep the security measures in force) knows waht to expect.

Obviously we were made to check all luggage and had the clear plastic bags for the items we were allowed to take on board - passport/ID, purse, jacket in my case. Keys had to be checked if they had a central locking system on them (don't know the technical term) and all electrical items - I nearly had a problem as forgot I'd put my USB in my purse... and a guy in front of me in security got very stroppy when he had to go back to check in cos he hadn't been told about not taking electrical items on board! Getting through security was a little slow but not too bad - had to put shoes through the x-ray machine and everyone had a pat-down search. Once through security we were allowed to buy things as usual and take them on the plane - including bottled water, books/magazines, food etc.

I was acutally really lucky - since I was flying from such a small airport (Southampton) the disruption wasn't too bad and most planes seemed to only have a 1 hour delay. Since I'd known in advance about all the problems I had managed to get to the airport early, which would've been a pain with no book except that I managed to get a seat on an earlier plane (with no charge since all admin costs were waived for the day!). So I ended up getting back into Edinburgh before the time I had been due to leave Southampton! I'm sure not everyone was so lucky and I hope it goes as smoothly for anyone travelling this weekend.

[Twirly]

This is my prediction.

It will turn out that getting on for half of the people arrested over the airplane bombing plots will be released and never charged, or never charged with terrorism.

It will turn out that there are no liquid explosives found anywhere in their homes, nor anywhere else.

There will probably be other signs of some attempted terrorist activity possibly including explosives.

The people arrested in Pakistan and who apparently gave the recent tip-off will say they were tortured.

There will be nothing like 10 planes involved.

The whole fiasco of Thursday August 10th at British airports will turn out to have been massively misguided and to have caused disruption far in excess of what was in reality required.

Somebody somewhere will sit down and work out how intelligence organisations can get things so massively wrong, and stop it happening again.

(OK, I lied. I don’t really believe the last one will happen.)

Maybe there has been a over-reaction. But I’d far rather that than have anyone killed, or even someone attempt to blow up one plane.

Whatever happens, the security services are bound to come in for flak, they always do. We seem to expect them to provide total accountability and security from the intentions of a group of people/terrorists who are totally unaccountable, secretive and have a mission to destroy. How they find anything out at all is a miracle. I certainly wouldn’t want to do what they have to do, and I’m very glad that they do. I’m not saying don’t question methods etc. but also remember what they are up against.

[El Salsero Gringo]

There are a small number of people of people who are motivated to amass the knowledge, the means, and the plans to blow a number of people out of the sky.

Ammonium nitrate fertiliser (put through coffee-grinder) - add diesel fuel and use a torch bulb filament as detonator. There - now we're all terrorists.

I’m not saying don’t question methods etc. but also remember what they are up against.

Well, what *are* we up against? Hard to remember when no one gives a straight answer, don't you think?

[littlewiggle]

Hey, Have you seen Ryanair's new security policy:

[Barry Shnikov]

Maybe there has been a over-reaction. But I’d far rather that than have anyone killed, or even someone attempt to blow up one plane.

Well, by definition if it is an over-reaction, then there wasn't a risk of death and destruction.

The thinking, as set out by commentators in the media and presumably as a result of briefings from the orforidees, was "We can't be sure there isn't another cell and although they weren't planning to carry out the attacks within the next few days, better be safe." So if, suppose, the police had simply ordered all the airlines that *no-one can fly over the next 7 days unless they had booked their ticket before August 10th*, how could there have been any danger? The new precautions could then have been phased in instead of causing mass chaos.

Whatever happens, the security services are bound to come in for flak, they always do. We seem to expect them to provide total accountability and security from the intentions of a group of people/terrorists who are totally unaccountable, secretive and have a mission to destroy. How they find anything out at all is a miracle. I certainly wouldn’t want to do what they have to do, and I’m very glad that they do. I’m not saying don’t question methods etc. but also remember what they are up against.

You seem quite relaxed about it. Notorious recent intelligence failures include absence of WMDs in Iraq, death of Jean Charles de Menezes, and some poor blighter shot on his own staircase as he and his brother are arrested, later to be released without charge after his home had been all but totally dismantled.

My disaffection is with the way the whole terrorist thing is being handled - inventing new crimes and punishments, for example - rather than with the people in the front line of intelligence gathering.

But particularly watch for my torture prediction. No better way to ensure that the intelligence you get is worthless than to obtain it with alligator clips and a car battery.

[Lynn]

Hand baggage allowed again - they look at it, ask you what you have in it, and put an 'approved' sticker on it, and of course its X-rayed. Still have to take off shoes, belt, watch etc to be x-rayed as well.

You still can't take liquids, though when I travelled on Fri no-one seemed to know if this included water (or indeed anything) bought in departures - some said OK, some said no. Have to see what they allow this time (currently still in departures).

[Twirly]

ESG, BS, yes I understand what you mean. I’m not saying that questions shouldn’t be asked.

I would still rather stringent security be put in place rather than have the chance of getting blown up. That’s a bit different than what happened to Jean Charles de Menezes though.

Question the methods by all means, but if we’re going to get angry with and blame anyone, then let it be the people that are actually causing the threat in the first place, not those who are trying to protect us from them.

[Donna]

Hey, Have you seen Ryanair's new security policy:

Brilliant!!!!

[Feelingpink]

Now in Chicago, having travelled yesterday. Security checks meant that we left about half an hour late (making sure that everyone on board was allowed to fly) and NOTHING was allowed apart from exactly what has been published - so only had travel documents and passport. Shoes had to be taken off twice to be checked. Now that the alert has been lowered to amber, am allowed to have lip salve on the return journey - yeeehah!

The staff were in pretty good spirits on the way through, with one guy showing his sense of humour in having to repeat what was not allowed ... "No magazines, no liquids, no papers, no pens, no fun ..."

[David Franklin]

The staff were in pretty good spirits on the way through, with one guy showing his sense of humour in having to repeat what was not allowed ... "No magazines, no liquids, no papers, no pens, no fun ..."

Seen elsewhere:

Of course, anyone who's ever had to change a nappy will understand the link between baby milk and explosions...

[foxylady]

Have just flown back in from Barcelona, having been on a fabby ceroc dance weekender. Flew out Thursday morning, so thought I'd add my experiences for you.

Arrived at Gatwick in good time - 5am -(being one of those anal people who has to be there when they say you need to be there !) to find the handluggage restriction . Thankfully had just enough space to fit my hand luggage into my case, but even on Easyjet they were allowing you to check two bags if you couldn't get it into the one case.


The check in staff weren't being clear as to what you could and couldn't take, and some of the security staff were less rigourous than others, which resulted in two of the ceroc group being let through with their electronic car keys, and one sent right back to check-in, having to queue again, then EasyJet refusing to check his key as it was too small, having to leave it at left luggage for the weekend, queueing again for security. He caught up with us in the departure lounge 4 hours later. You were allowed to take suitcase and house keys.

They made you take your shoes off to be x rayed. A little girl was in tears because she wasn't allowed to take a colouring book and some crayons. A businessman was denied his filofax/diary, he had to rip the important pages out.

Queue for checkin and security about 2 hours (later arrivals were taking 4 hours to get through). Wait in departure lounge for another 6 hours. The flight was due to leave at 7am. Being with a bunch of friendly cerocers certainly helped pass the time (you can have a lot of fun with a pack of cards and a handful of passports ), and yes as has already been said you could buy anything you wanted flight side, and take it on board - being cynical, BAA must have made a packet.

We had no idea what the delay was. We were told at 8am that 88 people due to fly on that flight were stilll to check in because of the queues. We kept being told it would be only another hour. At one point Simon Borland went up to ask a new security guard for an update to be greeted 'hello simon'. With hindsight to be greeted by name in the middle of a terrorist alert not particularly auspicious !! Turns out the guy dances, and has been to Simons classes at Camber !!!!!!

Finally got onto the plane at 11.30pm. After an hour the crew changed. New crew only available because there flight to palma had been cancelled (our crew had run out of duty hours). Then we were offered some water !! Left at 1pm. One of the last flights to leave Gatwick that day. EasyJet did give passengers free drinks for the duration of the flight.

It was weird being inside the airport not knowing what the problem was, but I think had they told us there would have been considerably more panic and disruption than the grumbles that there were.

Finally at the hotel in barcelona at 5ish, quick turnaround, out for tapas with the weekender bunch, 8pm to the ceroc 'club' to ,meet the guys who had been there and danced till midnight. Most of us had been up and about for 24 hours nearly at that point, but the weekend only got better !!

[tsh]

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08...t_terror_labs/

Amongs other things, indicates that a long flight is necessary to produce anything even moderately exciting - i.e. we've all been had...

[timbp]

Explosives themselves are not required. Simply spraying a highly inflammable liquid, or the propellant gas from something such as hairspray or any other spray can

Such as the duty-free perfumes that are offered for sale in the hour or two before touchdown?

and then igniting the gas cloud would give an unconfined gas cloud explosion that would most definitely result in the plane coming down.

Really? (This is a question, not a contradiction.) I agree such an ignition would cause passenger casualties and even fatalities, but damage the airframe enough to crash the plane?

Such a thing happened by accident in a persons house when an electrical fault on a CD player caused it to catch fire and over heat a can of hairspray which was on top of it which burst and ignited. The resulting explosion lifted the entire 14 tons of roof trusses and concrete tiles off of the house and they came back down 4 inched displaced to one side. Since CFC were banned as propellant gases butane or propane has been used as the propellants in spray cans.

This is different to your earlier suggestion. You described spraying the contents of a can and then igniting it to give an unconfined gas cloud explosion. In contrast, your example involves heating a confined gas.

So before we start whining about how the security restrictions are going to make life uncomfortable and inconvenient just think about how having 4 minutes of freefall from 30,000 feet into the Atlantic Ocean would ruin your day.

People who have tried it say freefall is the best experience of their life.

Uncomfortable? varies according to the person. Freefall is harmless in the short term; we have insufficient data on long term effects (ask the Russians for these), but in a plane crash, short-term is all that matters.
And in that situation, any effects of freefall are negated by the sudden cessation of freefall (ie, fallling is fine, it's hitting the ground that does the damage).

A lot of people are trying their best to make your life as safe as possible and reduce your discomfort and inconvenience levels as much as possible. Not all of them are going to get things absolutely right – but they will be trying their best under the same difficult circumstances that have been forced on us all.

On the current at the time laws/regulations/restrictions a plot to destroy aircraft was stopped.
The consequence of this "success" is that laws/regulations/restrictions are being made stronger.

If, using current restrictions, we were able to stop these people before they did any damage, why do we need further restrictions?

What is the overall cost of the new restrictions (delays, cancelled flights, missed business meetings, hotel vacancies)? What is the cost of a crashed plane?
How many plane crashes can we expect the new restrictions to prevent?

The old restrictions have already prevented 21 plane crashes (that seems to be the most common number in the news reports I've looked at).

Practically, I think the new restrictions do little to improve our safety. they may even decrease it.
I hope somebody soon publishes a cost-benefit analysis.

If I could take a book on a 24 hour flight, I'd spend the time reading my book. Without a book, I'd spend the time planning how to kill the person who prevented me taking a book.