Accident during Dancing!

[Freya]

Ok there has probably been a thread about this sort of thing but I could only find these but they didn't seam very relavant:

Injuries
Have you ever been injured because of someone's (avoidable) inexperience?

My queries relate to an injury I sustained a few weeks back. A guy tried to lead a duck under the arm move (not sure what their called) however I didn't/couldn't follow it got his arm caught round my neck and pulled off balance! We finished the dance as I didn't topple and fall flat on my bottom or face and didn't think too much of it! Until.....

........I sat down my neck went into spasm and was very sore and took three people to get me out of the dance venue and I went to A&E. Because of the injury was basically a whiplash type mechanism there is not a lot they can do! Fortunately for me I have full range of movement back and was dancing a few days after it happened (I Know I shouldn't have but I did anyway! I warned all my partners and they were lovely and gentle!) BUT I still have some residual tightness and aching in my neck and shoulders!


Anyway there is a point to this thread! The move the guy tried to lead was taught on the Tuesday and he performed it on the wednesday. I had attended both classes! This move has been lead with me before and I have followed it without any problems.

So my Queries:

1. Was I injured for anything I did wrong?
2. Is there a way to get out of this move if I realise too late what is happening to avoid further injury?

But perhaps the most important question is:

1. Should I tell the guy the next time I see him that he caused this injury to me ?

[MartinHarper]

Was I injured for anything I did wrong?

Maybe didn't warm-up the relevant muscle groups before dancing?

Depending on the specific duck move in question, it may be that better technique on your part (or his part, of course) would have enabled the move to fail in a less dangerous way. That said, we can't be instantly perfect dancers.

Should I tell the guy the next time I see him that he caused this injury to me ?

I'd want to know.

[David Franklin]

So my Queries:

1. Was I injured for anything I did wrong?
2. Is there a way to get out of this move if I realise too late what is happening to avoid further injury?

Very hard to comment without knowing exactly what duck move you were doing. My feeling is that if you're in the middle of a duck move that's going wrong, the best option is to try to stop your motion relative to the man, rather than fix the "duck" part of the move. For example, if you're doing a duck-under-turn type move, block the turn with a hand against the man's shoulder before worrying about getting your head out of the way.

The other option is to break the connection, but this may be hard if the guy doesn't let you, which is why the answer to:

But perhaps the most important question is:

1. Should I tell the guy the next time I see him that he caused this injury to me ?

should be a definite yes. I know I have a mental list of moves which are "normally safe, but be prepared to stop or let go in a hurry if it doesn't go as planned". By telling the guy what happened, at least he will know in the future that this is a move he needs to abort at the first sign the woman hasn't understood his lead.

[ducasi]

Should I tell the guy the next time I see him that he caused this injury to me ?

Well if the injury was your fault, and he had done nothing wrong, then I don't think you should tell him, but I don't think any of us can say who's to blame, so I'm not really sure what would be the best thing to do.

I guess it also depends on what the motivation is. If it's to make him feel guilty, then perhaps not. If it's to help him avoid getting into the same situation again, then probably yes.

Hope this vague, noncommittal reply helps.

[LMC]

This move has been lead with me before and I have followed it without any problems.

Seems to indicate that it wasn't 100% your fault, even if your following was not entirely correct.

2. Is there a way to get out of this move if I realise too late what is happening to avoid further injury?

Without knowing exactly what the move is, dunno. But any lead should be an "invitation", not an "order". Not sure what you mean by "too late" - but no-one should ever 'force' you into a move. I loathe duck under moves (and have taken to punishing people who know I hate them with a bit of hairwhipping during subsequent turns and returns ), but if they are smoothly led then they don't hurt.

If you realise that you're being led to duck, then just don't! - if you firm up your frame and stop then the lead should realise that you're 'refusing' and do something else. I would explain nicely though - you have the good reason of an injury to say something like "Sorry, I was hurt doing that move once and I really don't like it".

Hope you recover soon

[Cruella]

I got whiplash through dancing a year or so ago. It happened when the guy did a very very fast version of a double pretzel. I didn't tell him about it as I couldn't be sure as to who was at 'fault' (if anyone) so didn't really see the point in upsetting him about it. However i didn't dance with him for a long time after, more through irrational fear of the same thing happening again than because i thought he was dangerous. I have recently had some fantastic dances with him and all is fine. If a guy was actually hurting me whilst i was dancing with him then i would say something to rectify the problem there and then.

[Beowulf]

Glad you are ok now Freya but I have to say I hate these threads..

I have such an exaggerated and over inflated sense of guilt I feel guilty for things even though I didn't do them or had no control over them! I mean I haven't been dancing for weeks but already I'm thinking "Oooh I hope I don't hurt people when I dance with them!" hehe

Am beginning to think my choice of avatar is quite apt

However to answer Freya's Question if it were I who'd done the move that caused the pain I'd want to know. Ok I'd feel bad about it but I'd rather know and be aware of it and not do it again than not know about it and perhaps repeat the problem later.

Anyway.. I must go and lie down, I once looked at Israel on a map and with this whole Lebanon - Israel thing going on I'm feeling incredibly guilty

[Yliander]

But perhaps the most important question is:

1. Should I tell the guy the next time I see him that he caused this injury to me ?

yes but more in the manner of you know that move that we stuffed up the other week .. I ended up with this injury

As it's unclear who did what wrong - I don't think you it's a case of telling him he caused the injury - more a case of letting him know to be careful with that move as it can have serious implications

[Dazzler]

But perhaps the most important question is:

1. Should I tell the guy the next time I see him that he caused this injury to me ?

I know personally i would like to be told so as i could then either correct my lead to refrain from causing injury to others..although i would prefer to be told in a informal off to the side manner!

Sure you will deal with it in the right way though hun...

[Freya]

ok thanx for the replies!

First of all I don't blame the guy it was an accident! Maybe my phrasing was a bit out!

It was more does this guy have a right to know what happened and ensure that it doesn't happen again!

[LMC]

If it were me? I would wait and see if he tried to lead the move on me again, and "refuse" and explain (nicely) that you injured your neck the last time he led that move on you. No mention of "blame". If this leads to discussion then maybe the two of you can work out what went wrong, and if it is something with one of your techniques then you/he/both will know what to work on.

[Ballroom queen]

............... I loathe duck under moves ..............but if they are smoothly led then they don't hurt.

If you realise that you're being led to duck, then just don't! - if you firm up your frame and stop then the lead should realise that you're 'refusing' and do something else. .............

I also hate duck under moves, for no other reason than I don't usually duck enough and end up hitting my head on the guy - unless the guy is very tall. All entirely my fault, I also perceive that they look naff. I simply don't do them - if a guy leads I just stop, smile and say "oh I hate those moves, sorry!!!" - and they don't seem to mind - as someone else said, a lead is an invitation not an order!

I would tell him, but for his info rather than to blame.
Good luck - and let us know what happens!

[MartinHarper]

It was more does this guy have a right to know what happened and ensure that it doesn't happen again!

No guy can ensure that.

[RogerR]

You could tell him accusatively and your locale loses a man! You could tell him supportively and your locale gets a better thinking better dancing man! Your choice.

[Gadget]

I know the move in question, and I know that Freya can follow it (with the usual style and grace ) if it's led.

The main problem is that the move isn't taught as a lead; it's taught as a signal (gentle push down on shoulder) and reaction (follower ducks under). This has one or two problems:
- both partners have to know the signal and response
- both partners have to have the same understanding of what the signal is
- the signal has to be clear and different from the rest of the leading/move (if the hand normally rests on the follower's shoulder, how can a gentle push down be differentiated?)
- the signal has to be given with enough time for the follower to process it is a signal, work out what it means, then act on it
- if the follower dosn't know/understand the signal, then the lead should have a backup escape route; the only one from this move is to collect the follower's nose with the inside of the elbow
- the lead expects that if a signal is given, then it's now up to the follower to execute the remainder of the move; the lead should actually be trying to ease the move by raising the elbow as much as required rather than simply keeping it fxed in air.

Personally, I lead it by continuing the connection and trying to maintain the movement of the follower. The hand on the follower's shoulder rolling the pressure from the back of the shoulder towards the lower neck with a little downward pressure, maintaining the connection as the follower scoops their head round my arm, then using pressure from my fore-arm/wrist on the front of the shoulder to finish the turn into a step back.
Not saying this is the way to lead it, but it is a lead rather than a signal/response.

(My backup escape is to turn myself out, stepping back; left foot drawing a circle left while pivoting on the right and the fore-arm ends accross the back of the follower's near shoulder for a simple lead infront.)