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Thread: Israel v Lebanon

  1. #141
    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Israel v Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by RogerR
    GO On THEN ESG

    Justify ....
    I don't really feel the need to either condemn or justify, on either side. If you really want to read a justification (for the actions of any of several factions in the Middle East) there are plenty of websites that will provide you one. They all sound pretty convincing in their own ways.

    Oftentimes people use language to implicitly make a point while trying to sound even-handed. Sometimes it's worth posing the same questions (or stating the same 'facts') with a different vocabulary to see how the answer changes.

  2. #142
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    Re: Israel v Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch
    I doubt it very much. Their hatred if Israel isn't based upon Israel's recent actions as much as religious and historical/political motivation. They see the territory of Israel as sovereign Islamic/Arab land which is currently occupied by the Israelis. Israeli "belligerence" is almost incidental.

    The radical islamist factions of the world won't be happy unless the State of Israel ceases to exist altogether and is replaced by an Islamic state. (And even then they'd probably argue over who should run that state.)
    I think that's wrong. Politicians in this country routinely ignore people - and there are a very great number of them - who want the return of the death penalty and/or repatriation of certain types of people 'back to where they came from'. This is because they regognise that these are simply not realistic political goals. In the same way, some of the politicians in Arab countries realise that Israel is not going to be snuffed out. However, at this moment in time, such opinions could not be openly expressed because the political backlash would be fearful.

    My view is that if Israel were less enthusiastic about such things as firing tank shells at houses in refugee towns, there would be less people willing to kill themselves in order to destroy a bus full of Jewish schoolchildren. Whether Israelis like it or not, the truth is that it is the Palestinians who have been disenfranchised by the establishment of the nation of Israel, and this is a wound that still smarts very much. Pouring balm on that wound is likely to heal it somewhat quicker than continually probing it so that it bleeds afresh.

  3. #143
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    Re: Israel v Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    Those are three interesting and straightforward opinions, from someone sitting safely two thousand miles away from the situation of which he writes.
    Distance, as the poet quoth, gives perspective.

    This reminds me of an argument my mother used to trot out when I was an idealistic teenager.

    "You'll think differently when it happens to you!"

    I would point out that even if I did, it would not necessarily follow that I was wrong now but would be right then.

    If I had stumblied on someone raping my wife, I can imagine myself using extreme violence on the perpetrator. It's precisely because this type of reaction cannot be approved of that we have a legal system to keep some semblance of order. Likewise, disapproving of Israeli policies doesn't mean not sympathising with the plight of Israelis.

  4. #144
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    Re: Israel v Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by jiveknight
    While it is commonly believed to take two to make a fight, a third party must exist and must develop it for actual conflict to occur.
    And a big welcome to Neil from the Young Ones, everybody!!!

  5. #145
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    Re: Israel v Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by Chicklet
    [snip] hide Cadbury treats inside socks to smuggle them in.
    Why Cadburys? They were quakers, not jews...

  6. #146
    Registered User Chicklet's Avatar
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    Re: Israel v Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov
    Why Cadburys? They were quakers, not jews...
    I believe is was Jacob Schweppe they didn't approve of.

  7. #147
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Israel v Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by RogerR
    Perhaps the anschused east and west bank territories to provide Lebensraum for the Israeli people and their "settlements" dont sit too well with their neighbours.
    Slightly different topic, innit? If we start talking about the wider situation, we'll be going back to at leat 1911... However, whilst I agree that some of the settlers are clearly extremist loonies, I think it's more that most of Israel's opponents object to the entire country of Israel - there was an interview this morning on Today with a member of the Muslim Brotherhood who said exactly that.

    So yes, the extra occupation of land is an aggravation to those people, but they'd object to even the original 1948 partition plan, because they just want the entire country of Israel destroyed.

    Plus, I'd be very very cautious about using "anschused" - if only because it's a double "s"

  8. #148
    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Israel v Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    Plus, I'd be very very cautious about using "anschused" - if only because it's a double "s"
    Speaking as the viscous pendant you all know me to be, I'd be even more careful, because the word has an L in it too: Anschluss.

    Honestly, if you guys really want to be "clever" (not you DJ) and slip in a few snidey "Israel is actually Nazi Germany in disguise and I'm the only one smart enough to see it so I'm going to allude to it in a rather witty, off the cuff, cute kind of way, in passing, (Lebensraum - HO HO HO!) while we're discussing the situation in Lebanon" - you can at least get the spellings right.

  9. #149
    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Israel v Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov
    My view is that if Israel were less enthusiastic about such things as firing tank shells at houses in refugee towns, there would be less people willing to kill themselves in order to destroy a bus full of Jewish schoolchildren.
    I agree with that sentiment, but I don't think that there would be *no* people willing to blow up buses of schoolchildren, no matter how saintly Israel was.
    Whether Israelis like it or not, the truth is that it is the Palestinians who have been disenfranchised by the establishment of the nation of Israel, and this is a wound that still smarts very much. Pouring balm on that wound is likely to heal it somewhat quicker than continually probing it so that it bleeds afresh.
    Distinguish between disenfranchisement and displacement: I don't think that the creation of Israel as a state disenfranchised anyone: there was no popular movement for Palestinian statehood at any time up to 1948 and in fact the 1948 UN partition plan which would have established such a state was soundly rejected by the Arab population. Between 1948 and 1967, when the areas now known as Gaza and "The West Bank" were formally annexed by Egypt and Jordan respectively, there was no resistance movement (underground or overt) working against Jordanian or Eyptian rule to establishing a Palestinian state. It could at that time could have been done instantly and without reference to Israel, if it had been on the political agenda.
    Last edited by El Salsero Gringo; 27th-July-2006 at 10:41 AM.

  10. #150
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    Re: Israel v Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    Speaking as the viscous pendant you all know me to be
    So you swing, but very slowly?

  11. #151
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    Re: Israel v Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    Speaking as the viscous pendant you all know me to be,

    I wouldnt wear my best t-shirt, thats for sure.

    Though I do see you more of an open shirted George Michael type (sexual preference not withstanding) which leads to matted hair and annoying pulling whilst dancing. ouch.

  12. #152
    An Eclectic Toaster
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    Re: Israel v Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    Speaking as the viscous pendant you all know me to be, I'd be even more careful, because the word has an L in it too: Anschluss.
    Actually, depending on the opinion/age/pendantry of the German speaker you spoke to, it could be Anschluß. But we're into transliteration territory again...alphabets, eh?

  13. #153
    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
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    Re: Israel v Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov
    In the same way, some of the politicians in Arab countries realise that Israel is not going to be snuffed out.
    Probably so. The hatred of Israel is still there though, and it's still an ideological thing rather than a reaction to the Israeli military.

  14. #154
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Israel v Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov
    ....Likewise, disapproving of Israeli policies doesn't mean not sympathising with the plight of Israelis.
    Sage words indeed. The Jews really don’t seem to have had a fair hand. If Moses had turned left instead of right then the Jews would have had all the oil (old joke I know). More seriously, the persecution by the Nazis is not something that can easily leave the collective consciousness. The Yom Kippur war was started by a cowardly attack comparable to Pearl Harbour. I was reading about the logic of the development of their battle tanks, makes fascinating reading. A key design criteria was survivability, the only modern tanks to have rear exit doors so that the crew stands the maximum chance of escape. This was due to the fcat that Israel simply could not afford incur casualities due to its limited manpower So I do sympathise.

    HOWEVER, I still expect a state, even a new one like Israel, to act like a state. To bring yourself down to the same acts of barbarism as terrorists makes you a terrorist. If France, Germany or the UK behaved in the same way there would be outrage. Israel has just murdered UN peacekeepers with impunity. If any UK civilians should be killed in the conflict will the UK Govt have the balls to deal with Israel?

  15. #155
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Israel v Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    Israel has just murdered UN peacekeepers with impunity.
    To be fair, that sound like a massive ****-up in communications (on the part of the Israeli military) rather than a conspiracy - i.e. some fool taking a message and not passing it on to the relevant people. Certainly I can't see how deliberately killing UN observers could help Israeli aims.

    In war, these things happen. Of course, that doesn't mean the Israeli military aren't culpable, or that they don't bear responsibility for starting this action - they are and they do. But "murder" is maybe a bit strong.

  16. #156
    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Israel v Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    The Yom Kippur war was started by a cowardly attack comparable to Pearl Harbour.
    It was, actually, but not by Israel - by Egypt.

    The Yom Kippur war was started by a surprise attack in 1973 by the Egyptian army over the Suez canal. The Egyptians picked Yom Kippur because it is the holiest day in the Jewish calendar when all observant Jews are in synagogue, fasting and praying. It is the one day in the year when Israel comes to a complete standstill. The Egyptians believed that would make mobilising the Israeli army more difficult. If that's not a cowardly way to start a war, I don't know what is. Can you imagine the outcry from the Islamic world if any country started a war against a Muslim nation during Ramadan?
    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    HOWEVER, I still expect a state, even a new one like Israel, to act like a state. To bring yourself down to the same acts of barbarism as terrorists makes you a terrorist.
    That's your characterisation of recent events.

  17. #157
    Meglio del Cioccolato Demo
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    Re: Israel v Lebanon

    I'm just speechless that THIS is the message the world has given.

  18. #158
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    Re: Israel v Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by azande
    I'm just speechless that THIS is the message the world has given.
    "All those now in south Lebanon are terrorists who are related in some way to Hezbollah," Mr Ramon said.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/629/629/5218106.stm

  19. #159
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    Re: Israel v Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    "All those now in south Lebanon are terrorists who are related in some way to Hezbollah," Mr Ramon said.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/629/629/5218106.stm
    Interesting "logic" he has - if you've not moved away from your home you must be a terrorist

  20. #160
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Israel v Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    It was, actually, but not by Israel - by Egypt
    Do'h I KNOW! That was the point I was trying to make. The actual story of what followed is an inspirational story of tactics and audacity triumphing over superious numbers .... thought its a tradgedy such a conflict ever came to pass.

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