Israel v Lebanon

[Barry Shnikov]

1. They're too stupid to think of it
2. They're all evil and they just enjoy killing people
3. Your analysis is wrong

I don't believe 2, even if it is printed daily in the Independent. I don't believe 1 either (no offence, Gus, but if even you thought of it...) So that leaves 3.

...well, unless that just happened to be a false trichotomy. (I guess that would be the right word. Thanks ESG for not giving four options 'cos I don't like the looks of 'quadrichotomy'...)

[Barry Shnikov]

perjorative!)

Speilling alert!!

Only 1 'r' in the word. Answers on a postcard.

[Barry Shnikov]

They have if they are sponsoring Hezbolah, who then become "agents of the state" if you like. Israel certainly seem to believe this, and I would doubt its on a whim - but if you have insider information that says otherwise, please share
I find the assumption that Israel are in the wrong to be strange as there is so much conflicting evidence out there.

[My emphasis.]

Apparently, many people in powerful positions in the US and UK governments believed that Iraq had WMD it could launch within 15 minutes. So we went to war and thousands of people died and are still dying.

If I can say that these prats were wrong (which I did at the time; how could I sitting in Southampton have known that even WMDs were impossible, still less 15 minute delivery lead times, whereas TB and GB believed that nonsense?) and that we committed some kind of international crime, then I can say that about Israel's current activities in Lebanon. And it's got nothing to do with who lives in Israel.

[Barry Shnikov]

In response I said that Comparing Israel to the US and to Britain (in those respective conflicts) wasn't any help because Britain and the US aren't denied legitimacy by those they are fighting. (The IRA was not trying to drive the British from Britain etc etc.) It's very hard to compromise on the fact of your existence - you either do or don't exist, not something you can fudge, really.

That's very close to being a distinction without a difference. Do you really suppose that the intelligent people in the Arab countries close to Israel seriously entertain the possibility that Israel might be wiped off the face of the map?

The question of negotiation for Israel is not dependent on it 'compromising' on its own existence. It's been compromising on other things for quite some time now - illegal settlements for one.

And, when push comes to shove, attempting to militarily annihilate Hezbollah is not automatically the best way to deal with the threat it poses.

If Israel were not as belligerent as it is, the nearby states and their lowest-common-denominator inhabitants might see it as less of a threat to their lives and safety. When that happens, they may well be more likely to decide they can live with it, rather than pour money and lives into an effort to destroy it.

[Barry Shnikov]

Better stop now or I'll have whole page to myself.


(whistles)

[Gus]

Hmmmmm , what worries me significantly is that (as usual) the Forum seems intent on arguing on the minutae rather than agreeing with a basic point of human rights, i.e. you dont deserve to be bombed/shot/killed because someone in your proximity is doing bad things. Does the Forum really believe that Israel is justified to kill innocents because they can't kill the people who are actually attacking them?

[El Salsero Gringo]

You appeared to be advancing the suggestion that Israel's goal was to prevent Hezbollah doing whatever it is that Israel doesn't like, whereas the attacks on Beirut appear to be rather surplus to that requirement.

And, when push comes to shove, attempting to militarily annihilate Hezbollah is not automatically the best way to deal with the threat it poses.

If Israel were not as belligerent as it is, the nearby states and their lowest-common-denominator inhabitants might see it as less of a threat to their lives and safety. When that happens, they may well be more likely to decide they can live with it, rather than pour money and lives into an effort to destroy it.

Those are three interesting and straightforward opinions, from someone sitting safely two thousand miles away from the situation of which he writes.

Does the Forum really believe that Israel is justified to kill innocents because they can't kill the people who are actually attacking them?

Ignoring for one second the assumptions hidden in your question, Gus, rest assured we all understand your point of view, and that no doubt some people agree with it. Is it vital for your happiness to be assured that "The Forum" as a whole rallies round your flag? I thought we were doing rather well by avoiding the temptation to gang up on one side or the other. It seems a pity to spoil it now.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Does the Forum really believe that Israel is justified to kill innocents because they can't kill the people who are actually attacking them?

It's just occured to me (duh, I can be so slow, sometimes) to ask you Gus: how do you feel about the 'legitimacy' or otherwise of Katyusha rockets fired into Haifa, nose-cones packed with ball-bearings to maximise the death and injury to civilians there? That question's not directed at any at all apart from Gus. I'm just curious to know what his answer is.

[Baruch]

If Israel were not as belligerent as it is, the nearby states and their lowest-common-denominator inhabitants might see it as less of a threat to their lives and safety. When that happens, they may well be more likely to decide they can live with it, rather than pour money and lives into an effort to destroy it.

I doubt it very much. Their hatred if Israel isn't based upon Israel's recent actions as much as religious and historical/political motivation. They see the territory of Israel as sovereign Islamic/Arab land which is currently occupied by the Israelis. Israeli "belligerence" is almost incidental.

The radical islamist factions of the world won't be happy unless the State of Israel ceases to exist altogether and is replaced by an Islamic state. (And even then they'd probably argue over who should run that state.)

[Gus]

It's just occured to me (duh, I can be so slow, sometimes) to ask you Gus: how do you feel about the 'legitimacy' or otherwise of Katyusha rockets fired into Haifa, nose-cones packed with ball-bearings to maximise the death and injury to civilians there? That question's not directed at any at all apart from Gus. I'm just curious to know what his answer is.

Ahhhh ... its barbaric and an outrage .... so Irael doing the same would be ????? Let me guess ...... (or does Israal intend to shoot dead any more innocent observers and photographers to keep all their atrocities quiet ... again? Maybe they also learnt that little trick from the Muslim terrorists?

Sorry, but to quote a well known phrase, in the land of the eye for an eye, the world becomes blind.

[Gus]

The radical islamist factions of the world won't be happy unless the State of Israel ceases to exist altogether and is replaced by an Islamic state. (And even then they'd probably argue over who should run that state.)

Sad but true. Its a shame (and I know this is total fantasy) that the Muslim States realise that they have to control their own radicals if the Islam v Rest of World thing stands a chance of being resolved. (YES, I KNOW its a massive over-simplification)

[El Salsero Gringo]

Ahhhh ... its barbaric and an outrage ....

Is it just me, or are you managing to make that sound like sweet praise? Why don't you ask "the Forum" to condemn such things? Or don't you have the stomach?

[ducasi]

The radical islamist factions of the world won't be happy unless the State of Israel ceases to exist altogether and is replaced by an Islamic state.

Along with the rest of the world...

[ducasi]

Is it just me, or are you managing to make that sound like sweet praise? Why don't you ask "the Forum" to condemn such things? Or don't you have the stomach?

I'd say it's just you – at least, I didn't hear any praise in what Gus wrote.

This forumite thinks that the actions of all sides directly involved in this dispute is shameful.

[Gus]

Why don't you ask "the Forum" to condemn such things? Or don't you have the stomach?

OK.

Be it known that I, Gus, having being duly nominated by the Source (aka ESG) do hereby call upon all Foumites to condem the barbaric, muderous (and pointless) slaughter of innocents by both Israel and Hizbollah

Even now I can hear both the terrorist Muslims and the Terrorist State saying "You know what, why don't we stop killing people .. now?"

Does that satisfy you now?

[Baruch]

Along with the rest of the world...

True, but Israel is a special case, being established on what they regard as "Islamic territory".

There is a particular grass-roots hatred of Israel throughout the Islamic world, which does not apply to any other nation (though the USA, perhaps, comes close).

[El Salsero Gringo]

OK.

Be it known that I, Gus, having being duly nominated by the Source (aka ESG) do hereby call upon all Foumites to condem the barbaric, muderous (and pointless) slaughter of innocents by both Israel and Hizbollah

Thanks, that's great. Can we take it as read that every forumite (including myself) condemns any barbaric murderous and pointless slaughter of innocents by everyone anywhere in the world that it might be occuring, and move on back to the interesting and possibly illuminating discussion on what you call "minutiae"?

[Cruella]

Thanks, that's great. Can we take it as read that every forumite (including myself) condemns any barbaric murderous and pointless slaughter of innocents by everyone anywhere in the world that it might be occuring,

Yep!

and move on back to the interesting and possibly illuminating discussion on what you call "minutiae"?

I'm outta here!

[Gus]

Thanks, that's great. Can we take it as read that every forumite (including myself) condemns any barbaric murderous and pointless slaughter of innocents by everyone anywhere in the world that it might be occuring, and move on back to the interesting and possibly illuminating discussion on what you call "minutiae"?

Well, I think I should let someone who actually is informed about the situation (and lets face it, that sure isn't you) state the OFFICIAL UK position.

The British minister overseeing the evacuation of Britons from Beirut has criticised Israel over its bombardment of Lebanon. Kim Howells said it was "difficult to understand" the tactics being used by Israel against Hizbollah targets. About 360 Lebanese civilians - many of them children - have been killed in 10 days of shelling and bombing while much of the country's infrastructure has been destroyed ....He told Sky News: "These have not been surgical strikes and it's very, very difficult, I think, to understand the kind of military tactics that have been used. "If they are chasing Hizbollah, then go for Hizbollah. You don't go for the entire Lebanese nation."

Now .... simple exercise, can we find where something similar has been said before? I think we can. Does the above constitute an unbiased view, as opposed to the unbiased view of one of the parties committing the atrocities ... or am I being too simple again?

[bigdjiver]

OK.

Be it known that I, Gus, having being duly nominated by the Source (aka ESG) do hereby call upon all Foumites to condem the barbaric, muderous (and pointless) slaughter of innocents by both Israel and Hizbollah

Can I point out that in this country the law considers the slaughter of the guilty to be a barbaric act too, there is no death penalty here.