The Sleaze Thing

[Aleks]

Coming from a family where the females all have considerable assets, I am fortunate to be able to laugh it off when I catch someone taking a peek (and it's not just the men!). I have also been known to deliberately wear a t-shirt with VERY small writing on the front.........do many women find it offensive to be "noticed"? I'd rather be noticed than overlooked (but you all know that already!).

[Dance Demon]

Originally posted by Aleks
Coming from a family where the females all have considerable assets,

Can't say I'd noticed Aleks too busy looking into your lovely eyes!!

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Chicklet
I don't feel the majority are doing it deliberately....or are you???

I do deliberately look at the lady - so that I know where she is, what she is doing, and most importantly what I can get her to do next. To get the best idea of this, I look at her body - not her hands, or her feet, or her eyes. I don't do it all the time - just when I need to.

This gets more important as the ladies start to do more improvisation. The last thing I want to do is to drag her into the next move when she has just started to do something interesting.

Looking at the lady is something that gets taught in West Coast Swing, and I find it difficult to dance any other way. However I am very aware that this can look like I'm staring at her chest. I was once given the following tips:

- Use your peripheral vision if you can.
- If you know the lady is doing something, you don't need to keep watching. Look her in the eyes, and listen to the music.
- Keep your head up. Then at least everyone else doesn't think you are just getting an eyeful.
- If you do a lunge, or a dip, or anything that brings your eyes down to the same height as her chest, make a definite point of looking up. All it takes is one friend to take a photo...
- If you are doing anything close, then don't look down. You know where she is - you have probably got your hand on her back. And if you look down, you are only going to see (two?) thing.

David

(Sorry for being on-topic. Maybe I need a workshop...)

[wongd]

I'm confused. Going Back to Sheena's original point: Sleazy moves. I've been taught sleazy moves by a number of CEROC teachers. Many of the moves are particularly suitable for slower sexy music (I'm thinking Straight to Number 1 or Tango in Harlem -Touch and Go) - . If it causes so much offence, why do CEROC venues teach it. Some CEROC teachers do not emphasisze the point that the move should only be done with someone you know.

I have also found marked variations in what women at each venue find acceptable. A good barometer of initmacy is the slow manspin (this is the variation where the woman walks round the bloke, whilst the bloke wriggles there hips or adds a standing spin whilst the woman continues to walk round the bloke with one hand caressing the blokes waist). In Daventry I found more woman happier to leave the hand where it should be whilst in London venues on average, it's removed more quickly (thus spoling the look of the move completely).

I'm told that the teacher of a venue can have a great influence on the intimacy Tolerance level. Where the teacher really makes a point that this is all done in the best possible taste and should be hammed up as much as possible, women are more likely to play along with the mans lead. On the other hand blokes who execute these moves should be sensitive to their partners needs. If they make them feel uncomfortable (and you can discern this quite quickly), then you should get out of the sleazy move as quickly as possible and return to the arm jive (gurantteed a non-initimate move).

[Dance Demon]

Just thinking about Aleks' comment about "considerable assets" and was thinking that, guys dance with loads of different women in a night, all of whom are diferent heights, and sizes. Sometimes you have to remember to tailor certain moves for the partner you are dancing with. e.g. certain moves , like combs etc, are more likely to cause you to make contact with a woman with a larger bust. It can also be quite difficult if such women are wearing low cut tops. Mostly you try not to look, but it is hard not to sometimes. On such occasions, it doesn't mean you're a perv,.......just a healthy warm blooded male

[Emma]

Originally posted by wongd
I'm confused. Going Back to Sheena's original point: Sleazy moves. I've been taught sleazy moves by a number of CEROC teachers. Many of the moves are particularly suitable for slower sexy music (I'm thinking Straight to Number 1 or Tango in Harlem -Touch and Go) - . If it causes so much offence, why do CEROC venues teach it. Some CEROC teachers do not emphasisze the point that the move should only be done with someone you know.

I disagree that there is such a thing as a sleazy move - I think all moves have the potential to be sleazy or non sleazy depending upon how they are danced. For instance the move I've had trouble with in the past was a side-to-side step across - when the guy I was dancing with had a bit of trouble identifying my waist.....thought it was somewhat lower than it actually is :reallymad. Now with 99.9% of men this move would be entirely innocent.

I'm told that the teacher of a venue can have a great influence on the intimacy Tolerance level. Where the teacher really makes a point that this is all done in the best possible taste and should be hammed up as much as possible, women are more likely to play along with the mans lead.

I think you're absolutely right about this one.

It's also important to make the point once again that the complaints about sleaze apply to a tiny tiny *tiny* proportion of dancing chaps (and girls as well, I guess). In the year and a bit that I've been dancing I think I've been made to feel uncomfortable twice. Once was someone I shall no doubt never meet again, and the other was someone I know. He just gets as wide a berth as I can manage nowadays.

It's hard to refuse dances when you are starting out and any offer of a dance feels like a huge compliment, but I do think refusing the very few sleazebags (and reporting them to someone who can do something about it) is the only way to go

[Bill]

Originally posted by Emma
I disagree that there is such a thing as a sleazy move - I think all moves have the potential to be sleazy or non sleazy depending upon how they are danced.

Agree with you Emma. Anda s I said I think it does depend on the intention behind the move. Any move can be made to look or feel sleazy if the man (or woman) is thinking about touching rather than dancing.

I often do what might be described as sleazy moves but I'm always careful to ensure that there is appropriate space bewteen me and my partner. Anyone who teaches blues or up-close and-personal moves always emphasises that contact is with the knee and lower thigh. And ceroc teachers keep reminding men where the woman's waist is.

I did once touch a woman's breast when dancing - at Blackpool 2 years ago - but as I was spinning I didn't realsie what I'd touched until I stopped and saw her expression. I hadn't danced with her before but I think from my expression and me going red she guessed it was an accident.

AS most women have now indicated - it's not the odd accident that's the problem it's the male who constantly puts a hand in the wrong place that's the problem. But fortunately it's only a very few men who do this.

Let's all have fun but be careful eh !!!!

maybe I should stop those close moves just in case ????? Then again, might as well stop dancing

[Bill]

Originally posted by DavidB
I do deliberately look at the lady - so that I know where she is, what she is doing, and most importantly what I can get her to do next. To get the best idea of this, I look at her body - not her hands, or her feet, or her eyes. I don't do it all the time - just when I need to.

David

You are such a nice guy and such a lovley dancer that no woman would possibly think you were looking at her in an inappropriate way.

But if you did...........the woman would tell Lily and then you'd be in trouble !!!!

[wongd]

Ok confusion on my part. The following two moves are called sleazy in my neck of the woods:

1. Bodyroll: Boy stands directly behind girl; there is no gap between front of man, back of girl - this move can not be executed with a "comfortable safe distance between partenrs, else it looks naffs" - squats, this actions causes his bent knees to push in to the back of the girsl knees causing her to bend the knees also. They ripple their torsos in unison, leg, then backside then upper body
2. Granada Grand Mangler: which is too hard to describe at this time of night but roughly ends with the man standing beind the women, arms wrapped round the front of the girl

Are they actually called Sexy moves, but made sleazy by blokes with dishonourable intentions.

I know that you will be visted by a CEROC teacher who has a reputation for creating routines based on latino/intimate moves. Be interesting know whether they are categorised as intrinsically sleazy or sexy.

[Twinkle Toes]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bill

AS most women have now indicated - it's not the odd accident that's the problem it's the male who constantly puts a hand in the wrong place that's the problem. But fortunately it's only a very few men who do this.

Exactly !

Let's all have fun but be careful eh !!!!

Definitely !

maybe I should stop those close moves just in case ????? Then again, might as well stop dancing

Don't you dare !

Before all you gents get paranoid, we ladies are talking about 1 in a hundred. That's probably why we tolerate it to a degree ! :sorry
But it is unfortunate that these creeps do spoil it for some people, to the extent that it becomes very uncomfortable and insulting.

... and apologies for blowing your trumpet again Bill, but you are one of the dancers who can carry out a sexy move without it being sleazy at all - you have always been the perfect gentleman and I for one have never once felt uncomfortable when dancing with you. So, stay

The same applies to Roy the Boy. He is forever doing some unorthodox moves ( I think he makes them up himself) but we ladies know that it's all fun with him - the cheeky grin instead of the lecherous leer gives him away.

TT

[bigdjiver]

The problem we all have is that we all have our own definition of what is sexy, sensual or sleazy. I have danced with young beginners girls and they simply could not bear being touched on the hip area. For them the first move is an unwelcome sexual assault. I have no problem seeing modern jive as an art form, a type of acting. I see my partner as a dancer, not as a woman. If I do start seeing them any other way I stop dancing with them. I am married, faithful and want to stay that way. There are moves in Modern Jive, which look sexy or sleazy, depending on your viewpoint, but there is a vital inch or so of separation which makes them, in my view, sensual instead. If any of you have seen "Cannery row" there is a scene where Nick Nolte dances with the heroine. They do the "pecking" move where the lady wraps her legs around the guys waist and they "peck" over alternate shoulders. I just regard that as a fun move, for me, not even sexy. I know that a majority would consider it sleazy. I have had to drop such moves from my repetoire awaiting the advent of another partner that sees it the same way. I think the dance scene is the poorer for it.

[TheTramp]

I had my bum groped (no other word for it) at Fulham last night.

By a forum member no less.

I feel sooooooo defiled.



Steve

[Chicklet]

I've just re-read this whole thing again and wonder if this is a fair conclusion of points so far: (not that I'm trying to conclude discussions, please don't think that!!!!)


For the girls it's not WHAT it is but WHO it is????

If it's a guy they know well, anything is probably great,

If it's a guy they know by reputation to be a good dancer and a sound bloke then it's not in any way a problem and a good excuse to (in Bill's words was it?) ham it up

It's when it's a guy they DON'T know, who's intentions are therefore unclear THAT's when there's a problem.


So are all you lovely guys that we would trust to the ends of the earth (says me having met a grand total of about 4 of you!!!!! LOL) worrying needlessly about particular moves and doing them with everybody when all you need to think about really is how well do I know this girl??



Am I being far too simplistic????

[Chicklet]

Originally posted by TheTramp
I had my bum groped (no other word for it) at Fulham last night.

By a forum member no less.

I feel sooooooo defiled.



Steve

I know he's a bit of a "special" case but is Steve kinda agreeing with the above by suggesting that this really wasn't a problem for him cos he knew her, (eeek I'm assuming it was a her!!!) so the boundaries of acceptable behaviour are different?

Cx

[TheTramp]

Ummm.....

Well, actually, I complained bitterly to her (yes, you were right about that) husband. But he didn't seem to care.

And yes, as previously states, the boundaries of acceptable behaviour are much different if you know (and trust, and I guess 'like' comes into it as well) the person.

Define special!!

Steve

[Chicklet]

special as in special school???????

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Chicklet
special as in special school???????

I love you too Chickie.

Just less and less with every passing day

Steve

[Chicklet]

Well you must have known that would happen pretty soon after we got engaged eh?

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Chicklet
Well you must have known that would happen pretty soon after we got engaged eh?

Good point!!

Should we break off the engagement for the sake of our friendship.

Or should we just go ahead and end up hating each other like every other married couple?

Damn. I'm such a cynic!!

Steve

[Chicklet]

Will we wait till after the Champs and accept all the lovely engagement pressies our chums will bring us??????

LOL